6 ms·

well, if you look closer, the people telling this bs are actually all coming from a more than well-off-background. Like the person playing in a local band, tel

by fock 6y ago

well, if you look closer, the people telling this bs are actually all coming from a more than well-off-background. Like the person playing in a local band, telling me "I moved out" - me: "nice, but how can you afford that" - "I work as a tutor" - "that 400€ is not supporting your apartment" - "oh, no, my father is paying for that". yessss. I would really liked to have moved out too for the aforementioned reasons (lived in a small city next to uni-town, where there's basically nothing happening and except for my small circle, I didn't find HS people very interesting...), but basically all the great experiences cost money and/or time of which there is none, if you really do it in a financially sound way while studying something MINTy... (and I doubt that feeling like a slave is the glorious experience). Note: probably I was a coward in the beginning for not moving away, because then I could have gotten state-assistance and cheap student dorms... Though that's kind of a though choice, when your uni of choice is basically the academically best around in your country... (and frankly, at this point I didn't have a lot of people telling me, that this not necessarily is, what you want in a bachelors degree...)

bumby 6y ago
Good point. I think many of the people who weren’t well off only afforded this experience by taking on debt. Besides, there’s more ways than just college to have that “real” growth experience. Military, mission work, peace corps. Hell, I’d even argue these are more of an experience because they aren’t built on the somewhat artificial backdrop of universities that can insulate you from the “real” world without all the debt downside
- watwut 6y ago
  Military will insulate you quite a lot from everything not military.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    ... and depending on what you're forced to do "for your country", it might mess you up psychologically. And at least in the US, we sadly don't take very good care of our veterans.
    - bumby 6y ago
      I wasn’t implying some sort of mandatory military service, just that there are other avenues to personal growth. I personally don’t think advocating a rite of passage potentially built upon lifelong debt is prudent
      - kelnos 6y ago
        Fair point.
  - werber 6y ago
    I have no military experience. But I've talked to people who have claimed that the experience erases racially biased tendencies in a lot of people through exposure and a familial bond with people from different backgrounds. It's anecdotal, but I sincerely hope that is the case
    - watwut 6y ago
      I believe it can and does. And I also know there are military white supremacists groups too and that these groups like to recruit in military. But racism was not my point. Military has actual big price in people who join it. Veterans do have issues to adjust back to civilian society. Which is basically euphemism for whole host of serious issues. Military families divorce often and their famillies do have actual issues due to frequent moving or partner long term away. Domestic violence rates are high. The whole growth experience is leaving quite a few people in difficult situations after. And it rubs me wrong when it is framed as "less insulated the 'real' world. It is as insulated as it gets. Or as "real life" or "real growth" as opposed to "not real life" in quite common experience of either college or job or having familly that functions in more normal way. It is called sacrifice for a reason.
      - bumby 6y ago
        >The whole growth experience is leaving quite a few people in difficult situations after. This is true. It’s not a cakewalk for everybody. But the dichotomy of some of those difficult situations is they can both foster growth and simultaneously stress is an individual. I think some would say that stress/sacrifice is a necessary precursor for that growth. Unfortunately, sometimes the stress exceeds the individuals coping mechanisms. The book Tribe gives an interesting perspective on military service. The author wrote it after his personal growth (and stress) from creating the documentary Restrepo about the outpost of the same name in Afghanistan.
      - werber 6y ago
        I can understand that, my dad was in the military and I experienced some of those realities first hand, but it was before I was born and he has never really talked to me about his experience outside of teeny tiny "fun" bites. But, I'm really curious about white supremacist groups in the military. Is it a separate hierarchy? Is it wide spread? Do they recruit from within the military or get people to join with the intention of joining their klan? I had no idea that was a thing, but I again, am clueless.
  - bumby 6y ago
    It can but it can also expose you to a lot of different cultures and experiences outside your comfort zones. Like anything else, it’s somewhat incumbent on the individual to engage those experiences.
    - watwut 6y ago
      You may he stationed away, but exposire to many cultures is likely a bit of stretch. It is exposure in very specific way. (If you are in navy, you have some free time to shop and drink once in few months.) Soldiers does not exactly have reputation for understanding tolerance for different cultures. And it is not in your individual controll to engage with experiences or not. Being soldier is opposite of making individual choices. You do a lot in groups, group conformity and group cohesion are bug things, you get told what to do.
      - bumby 6y ago
        I think this is just one area where we disagree. Sometimes I think people assume all deployments are to combat zones which is not the case. Even in combat deployments, a larger portion of time is spent on humanitarian missions than people realize. I don’t know your age or experience, but what you said doesn’t ring true to me. If you’re deployed to a non-combat zone you don’t just get a day off every couple weeks. You have liberty most nights and weekends, at least if you’re not actually stationed on a ship. It’s no different than college. You can be the person who just holes up and plays video games, or just go out in the same groups without exposing yourself to different ideas, or you can get out of your comfort zone. I’ve known people who made the most of their free time by regularly volunteering in local clinics/emergency rooms, lived outside of base in the city with locals, exposed themselves to local culture etc. There’s more freedom than many think. And this is coming from lower enlisted ranks of one of the branches with a reputation of being more disciplined and strict.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
watwut 6y ago
Going to less good university just so that you leave home sounds to me like immature decision. It is the sort of thing teenagers do - doing something irrational just to prove that I am an adult. I think that if you have good relationships with parents, do your part in the house chores, the school nearby is actually good, there is absolutely nothing wrong with staying at home. If you cant wait till you leave the family home, then maybe it is not that you are super mature, maybe simply relationships in your family sux. Which is not a badge of honor. To add, living outside of campus have one big advantage - freaking uninterrupted sleep time.

by fock 6y ago

bumby 6y ago

Good point. I think many of the people who weren’t well off only afforded this experience by taking on debt. Besides, there’s more ways than just college to have that “real” growth experience. Military, mission work, peace corps. Hell, I’d even argue these are more of an experience because they aren’t built on the somewhat artificial backdrop of universities that can insulate you from the “real” world without all the debt downside

watwut 6y ago
Military will insulate you quite a lot from everything not military.
- kelnos 6y ago
  ... and depending on what you're forced to do "for your country", it might mess you up psychologically. And at least in the US, we sadly don't take very good care of our veterans.
  - bumby 6y ago
    I wasn’t implying some sort of mandatory military service, just that there are other avenues to personal growth. I personally don’t think advocating a rite of passage potentially built upon lifelong debt is prudent
    - kelnos 6y ago
      Fair point.
- werber 6y ago
  I have no military experience. But I've talked to people who have claimed that the experience erases racially biased tendencies in a lot of people through exposure and a familial bond with people from different backgrounds. It's anecdotal, but I sincerely hope that is the case
  - watwut 6y ago
    I believe it can and does. And I also know there are military white supremacists groups too and that these groups like to recruit in military. But racism was not my point. Military has actual big price in people who join it. Veterans do have issues to adjust back to civilian society. Which is basically euphemism for whole host of serious issues. Military families divorce often and their famillies do have actual issues due to frequent moving or partner long term away. Domestic violence rates are high. The whole growth experience is leaving quite a few people in difficult situations after. And it rubs me wrong when it is framed as "less insulated the 'real' world. It is as insulated as it gets. Or as "real life" or "real growth" as opposed to "not real life" in quite common experience of either college or job or having familly that functions in more normal way. It is called sacrifice for a reason.
    - bumby 6y ago
      >The whole growth experience is leaving quite a few people in difficult situations after. This is true. It’s not a cakewalk for everybody. But the dichotomy of some of those difficult situations is they can both foster growth and simultaneously stress is an individual. I think some would say that stress/sacrifice is a necessary precursor for that growth. Unfortunately, sometimes the stress exceeds the individuals coping mechanisms. The book Tribe gives an interesting perspective on military service. The author wrote it after his personal growth (and stress) from creating the documentary Restrepo about the outpost of the same name in Afghanistan.
    - werber 6y ago
      I can understand that, my dad was in the military and I experienced some of those realities first hand, but it was before I was born and he has never really talked to me about his experience outside of teeny tiny "fun" bites. But, I'm really curious about white supremacist groups in the military. Is it a separate hierarchy? Is it wide spread? Do they recruit from within the military or get people to join with the intention of joining their klan? I had no idea that was a thing, but I again, am clueless.
- bumby 6y ago
  It can but it can also expose you to a lot of different cultures and experiences outside your comfort zones. Like anything else, it’s somewhat incumbent on the individual to engage those experiences.
  - watwut 6y ago
    You may he stationed away, but exposire to many cultures is likely a bit of stretch. It is exposure in very specific way. (If you are in navy, you have some free time to shop and drink once in few months.) Soldiers does not exactly have reputation for understanding tolerance for different cultures. And it is not in your individual controll to engage with experiences or not. Being soldier is opposite of making individual choices. You do a lot in groups, group conformity and group cohesion are bug things, you get told what to do.
    - bumby 6y ago
      I think this is just one area where we disagree. Sometimes I think people assume all deployments are to combat zones which is not the case. Even in combat deployments, a larger portion of time is spent on humanitarian missions than people realize. I don’t know your age or experience, but what you said doesn’t ring true to me. If you’re deployed to a non-combat zone you don’t just get a day off every couple weeks. You have liberty most nights and weekends, at least if you’re not actually stationed on a ship. It’s no different than college. You can be the person who just holes up and plays video games, or just go out in the same groups without exposing yourself to different ideas, or you can get out of your comfort zone. I’ve known people who made the most of their free time by regularly volunteering in local clinics/emergency rooms, lived outside of base in the city with locals, exposed themselves to local culture etc. There’s more freedom than many think. And this is coming from lower enlisted ranks of one of the branches with a reputation of being more disciplined and strict.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

watwut 6y ago

Going to less good university just so that you leave home sounds to me like immature decision. It is the sort of thing teenagers do - doing something irrational just to prove that I am an adult. I think that if you have good relationships with parents, do your part in the house chores, the school nearby is actually good, there is absolutely nothing wrong with staying at home. If you cant wait till you leave the family home, then maybe it is not that you are super mature, maybe simply relationships in your family sux. Which is not a badge of honor. To add, living outside of campus have one big advantage - freaking uninterrupted sleep time.