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This would just hasten the demise of the already broken US. Lot's of silent downvotes - I'm happy to debate, do not be afraid to comment and tell me what you d

This would just hasten the demise of the already broken US. Lot's of silent downvotes - I'm happy to debate, do not be afraid to comment and tell me what you disagree with.

spiderfarmer 6y ago
The Covid crisis showed perfectly just how broken the US is. The country in its current state is hopelessly divided, terribly corrupt and it doesn’t have a functioning government or healthcare system. Politicians and civilians seem to pride themselves in making dumb and arrogant statements that show their lack of knowledge and experience. Democracy seems on the chopping block too. Trump is a major cause of this broken image, but for my generation it really started with the potential vice president Sarah Palin. As a European I can say that the only people who still look up to the USA as a great country are the people who base their views on Hollywood instead of the news.
- dwater 6y ago
  I don't know what generation you are, but for my generation it started with Newt Gingrich and the "Moral Majority"'s intentional stonewalling and dismantling of government.
  - thewebcount 6y ago
    It definitely goes back to at least Reagan saying that government is the cause of all of our problems, but it's probably earlier than that. I have a vague recollection of Nixon saying something similar, but can't remember the details.
  - toby 6y ago
    There's a great podcast about this: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/transcript To me the most interesting part was about how Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan were pretty close friends: "Then one day, I picked up the paper and read where he had made a statement about me that was pretty harsh. And I called him, and I said, Tip, I thought we had a relationship here, where we could do business together. And, oh, now, I read in the paper that you said-- And he interrupted me and said, well, buddy, that's just politics. He said, after 6 o'clock, we're buddies. We're friends. I did take it that every once in a while, when we had a meeting, I would visibly set my watch at above 6 o'clock."
- fermienrico 6y ago
  > As a European I can say that the only people who still look up to the USA as a great country are the people who base their views on Hollywood instead of the news. Not sure what to say about this - I don't think anyone believes what America is on the basis of Hollywood. America is 50 states and depending on which state you're referring to - quality and standard of living, incoming, happiness, etc varies. It is like looking at the state of Romania and basing your views about Sweden, both EU nations.
  - spiderfarmer 6y ago
    I went to visit LA 10 years ago. I somehow expected nice roads and well maintained infrastructure, because that is what you see in the movies. It was a shock for me to see how shoddy everything looked.
    - fermienrico 6y ago
      Definitely, American infrastructure is crumbling in big cities. It is really bad. Roads in SF have pot holes everywhere, the whole thing smells. It is awful. Did you visit Lake Tahoe and any of the National Parks? The country side infrastructure usually is excellent and well maintained. Certain states are better - Colorado and Utah have excellent roads even in the cities. Phoenix, Arizona is same.
- war1025 6y ago
  > As a European I can say that the only people who still look up to the USA as a great country are the people who base their views on Hollywood instead of the news. For many in the US, the opinions of Hollywood and the major news outlets are equally inaccurate and irrelevant. Consider that the US is more comparable to the EU as a whole than any individual country in the EU, and a lot of things regarding US politics start to make more sense.
  - User23 6y ago
    The United States is best viewed as 50 little countries. Culturally Louisiana is as different from North Dakota as France is from Sweden. Our federal government is increasingly powerful, but State sovereignty isn't just a paper promise. The States retain significant real authority and can effectively rebuff the federal government if the political will exists. For better or for worse though, the power of the States has been on a downward trajectory for over a century. Nevertheless the strong fiscal, monetary, and military union between the States has been hugely beneficial in most respects. The EU on the other hand is broken by design[1]. It appears to be largely forgotten now, but the framers of the EU were well aware that monetary union without fiscal union was unsustainable in the long term. They, perhaps unwisely, assumed that reasonable compromises would be reached in relatively short order. [1] https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v14/n19/wynne-godley/maastricht-and-all-that https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v14/n19/wynne-godley/maastri...
- dfsegoat 6y ago
  I Love America. I don’t think the problems you describe are unique to the US. > ‘and it doesn’t have a functioning government or healthcare system’ Can you elaborate here? I can have no job or health insurance, and I can obtain treatment at the hospital. Likewise, I participate in city council and roundtables with city and state officials. They listen to the community and policy changes are affected based on that. Govt seems to work pretty well locally. Federal govt is not relevant at that level. Could it all be better? Sure. But your hyperbole is a bit much.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    > I can have no job or health insurance, and I can obtain treatment at the hospital. For emergency care, yes. Not for an MRI or a hip replacement or dialysis or physical therapy or cancer treatments or prostheses or cataract surgery or... This is this weird myth that won't die. It's absolutely true that emergency rooms are universally required to treat anyone who walks in the door. It's also true that ER care makes up something like 3% of US health care delivered.
    - alcatrash 6y ago
      "I can have no job..." 50 million people in the US are on Medicare or Medicaid, and can and do absolutely receive those services, based on age or income level. The ones who cannot are those whose income is too high for those service and choose to forgo or cannot afford health insurance.
      - katbyte 6y ago
        And then pay deductibles and co pays and god forbid your out of network.. your making excuses for a broken system which most of the 1st world surpasses in almost every way
        spiderfarmer 6y ago
        My family of 5 pays just 240 euro’s per month. That covers everything.
- taeric 6y ago
  I wouldn't be too quick to point to Covid as evidence of anything, yet. Unless you are just wanting to say that we have a very divided landscape. Even then, used to be there were lynching and other horrid acts. I wouldn't claim we are past all horrors, but nor do I see any reason to think they are actually getting worse. Just more light on them. (And I am hopeful that that is a good thing, for the arc of progress.)
  - newacct583 6y ago
    > I wouldn't be too quick to point to Covid as evidence of anything, yet. It's evidence of something. The US covid response is a distinct, notable, and quite frankly disastrous outlier in the industrial world. No one handled this as badly as we did, objectively. Shouldn't we be looking for an explanation for that? And maybe taking lessons that might hold for other things we're doing badly?
    - taeric 6y ago
      Without a counterfactual, it is hard to know what could have made it better. I'm personally very sceptical that we know what could have made things better. This is while still being dismayed at how crappy leadership has been. So, I think we'll know more in a few years. Hopefully we learn enough that we make better choices next time. As things are standing though, my money is on prior exposure to corona and sars being the largest contributors to places that have "done better." And we aren't out of the woods, yet, as it were. If that is the case, most of what we are seeing is just more evidence that the majority vote lost out last time. Such that now we are seeing the majority is still upset about that.
      - newacct583 6y ago
        > Without a counterfactual, it is hard to know what could have made it better. You realize there are dozens of other nations that saw the same virus, right? That seems like a nonsensical response to me, as if you're asking "Well, who could have known?". Well, Germany. Germany seems to have known. Also Japan, Korea, Canada, Australia, New Zealand (especially those guys)... Even nations like Spain and Belgium, which had disastrous early outbreaks got it under control at a time when we had a huge second wave. You really don't think we have anything to learn from that data? > my money is on prior exposure to corona and sars being the largest contributors to places that have "done better." Uh... what? Let's ignore the pseudoscience argument and just talk demographics: you're saying that the United States, alone among all nations in the industrialized world, was unique in that it had no prior exposure to pre-existing coronavirii. Everywhere else in the industrialized world, every nation, had large pre-existing immunity? That's what you're going with? And you think that makes sense?
- AviationAtom 6y ago
  Might I temporarily diverge from the immediate topic at hand and ask you views on the Romani people?
- onepointsixC 6y ago
  Considering that the US is so corrupt, with non functioning government and/or health care systems, why are EU per capita death rates close to the American ones? In the presumably more competent, wealthier, and more generous Western European nations, a majority of them have death rates which exceed the US. Why? Furthermore given the significantly greater number of cases shouldn't US death rates be significantly greater if it's healthcare system is non functional?
  - katbyte 6y ago
    America is still in the top 10? And I think the big difference is all the other countries are well past the peak while America is accelerating into a second just as bad as the first?
    - onepointsixC 6y ago
      Europe appears to be also accelerating into a second wave as well[1]. [1]: https://time.com/5876132/europe-coronavirus-second-wave/ https://time.com/5876132/europe-coronavirus-second-wave/
  - spiderfarmer 6y ago
    Why compare EU countries to the US? Why not countries with states?
    - onepointsixC 6y ago
      Okay, fine let's compare country to country: The UK, Belgium, Italy, Sweden, and Spain all have worse if not significantly worse mortality rates per capita [1]. Why have they performed worse than the "terribly corrupt" and nonfunctioning government and or healthcare system of the US? Furthermore France, while having a lower mortality rate, is still within 10% of America's. That a whole lot of Western Europe right there which doesn't anything to show for your implied superiority. That's not to say there aren't European countries which have done better, there are: Germany, Denmark, Ireland, Netherlands, have thus far have significantly lower death rates per capita. How can you off handily suggest that the US is non functioning and broke while still beating countries which make up half of the EU, by population? [1]: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
- gwright 6y ago
  > As a European I can say that the only people who still look up to the USA as a great country are the people who base their views on Hollywood instead of the news. Basing your view on the "news" is a huge mistake. Mass media portrayal of the US (or really of any country) is much closer to a constructed narrative than a transparent view of "reality". Do you think US "news" portrays Europe accurately? (honest question)
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Stronger: For the last several years, the US has been the target of a disinformation and agitprop campaign. (Or more than one. And it doesn't really matter if the origin of the campaign is domestic, so you have to count the Republican and Democratic machines, which both paint a picture that things are terrible, and our side is the only one that can fix it.) That doesn't make it easy to form a realistic assessment of how good or bad things are...
- cactus2093 6y ago
  As an American, I have to say I agree and it is sad and frightening to see. It has been a long-time coming that the US has been getting more and more stagnant and unable to do certain things. It's like we've been on a freighter headed for an iceberg, and the rudder is broken so we're all just watching it in slow motion. Look at infrastructure projects, healthcare, college costs, housing, global warming, etc. They've been obvious, impending issues for decades and we've just sat by and done nothing while they become bigger and bigger problems for more and more people. Still, at least in my opinion, America has continued to have a "superpower" of innovation in other, less constrained areas. Many of the brightest, most ambitious people in the world have continued to come here and do amazing things, as they have for the past century. And when things have been truly dire even fairly recently, like the '08 financial crisis or even 9/11, we've managed to take action and address it. In hindsight there were obviously major flaws to our responses to those things, but they were over-reactions rather than inaction, and were arguably still better than doing nothing (with the notable exception of the war in Iraq, but that had a lot of more complex causes and wasn't necessarily America's direct response to 9/11). For me personally, this is what makes the current moment so devastating to watch, and why I have started feeling like this time is different. We've had one of the top 5 biggest threats of American lives in all of history with Covid-19, and the federal response has been just ignoring it. On top of that, we're now going full steam ahead on shutting down or severely limiting immigration. That strikes me as just about the most idiotic, and profoundly un-American thing I can think of. These things take time to cause major shifts so I am hopeful we still have a couple of years to correct the course before the effects start to compound too much, but it feels like a particularly fragile time and the future could go either way at this point.
ed25519FUUU 6y ago
Or rather America is waking up and realizing that sending it’s entire industrialized base to China was a bad idea. Or realizing that China’s “partnership” program is really a thin veil for stealing American IP and technology. It’s better to steal than to create. Just take a look at the new Chinese steal fighter and it’s resemblance to the F-35 steal tech [1] It’s about recognizing reality, not vilifying another world power. 1. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-j-20-stealth-fighter-built-stolen-f-35-technology-89586 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-j-20-stealth-f...
- pinkfoot 6y ago
  < the new Chinese steal fighter and it’s resemblance to the F-35 steal[th] tech Modulo that all stealthy fighters will look somewhat similar, you do know why the F-35 looks like the Russian Yak-141? Yakolev was in a IP-technology-transfer with agreement with Lockheed Martin from 1991 to 1995 (approx) to show LM how it was done. [1] https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/did-old-russian-jet-help-inspire-f-35-44777 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/did-old-russian-jet-h...
- AviationAtom 6y ago
  It's always fun to try to explain that in America intellectual property is seen as rightfully yours, on the basis of it being original, while in China they see absolutely no wrong in ripping off an original idea, in fact it's encouraged and seen as a form of flattery. Totally different ways of thinking, but people presume everyone thinks in the same way as they think, so it's an entirely foreign concept to them.
fermienrico 6y ago
You’re making a blanket statement of “America is dead”. What do you expect? If you have specific things you want to discuss, please do so. “X country is leading to demise” - that’s a pretty powerful statement to make unless you’re talking about a stateless country.
- c1sc0 6y ago
  I’ll bite. Looking in from the outside the US is in terminal decline because it lacks: * a viable education system which has led to the current wave of anti-science sentiment. * a viable healthcare system which is causing people to get in debt over the smallest of medical issues. * a viable political system which represents the will of the people. * a viable economy where the younger generation can expect to do better than their parents.
  - mc32 6y ago
    What are you classifying as “anti-science”. We might have anti-vaxxers and people who are redefining sexes in non biological ways (not saying there isn’t a valid non scientific reason for this), etc., but I don’t think people are anti science. Basic health for people not covered I grant you that is a problem but it’s not a unique one in the world. It does represent the people; however since things are more or less 50:50 but polarized, it’s impossible to please two diametrical sentiments simultaneously. Once your economy is mature one cannot expect to have indefinite growth whereby descendants do better than predecessors. We can teach a better stasis if we don’t allow undermining (like shipping jobs overseas and bringing in low wage workers to upset the economic stasis.
  - bserge 6y ago
    1. Fixable without "the demise of the USA". But it probably won't be, as enough people have good enough education to get by. 2. Again, enough people get by, it'd have to be a majority protesting/rioting for things to change. And they can be changed without the country dying. 3. Not unique to the US, sadly. But the government is nowhere near authoritarian enough for people to risk dying to change it. 4. It's one of the world's biggest and healthiest economies, and it's kind of rare in the whole modern world for the younger generation to do better than their parents. With remote work and automation becoming normal, it may be possible for people to live and work in cheaper places. Even as it is, the US can continue to function for decades, even centuries, more or less. I just don't see it in terminal decline.
newyankee 6y ago
It is also likely that both China and USA will thrive in their own worlds after the big initial shock of 3-4 years which will lead to realignment of the supply chains, currency exchange changes etc as long as the countries do not have armed conflicts because it would be in the interests of neither.
net2net2net 6y ago
Seethe more. It is very unbecoming.
sremani 6y ago
Demise of US is overrated. The Geographic, Demographic, Intellectual advantages of America are not easily replicable. Add to the mix Shale/Energy Independence and brining back reasonable amount of supply chain back to North America. China does not stand a chance. Look at their BRI track record. Every ally of US during Cold war benefitted economically and places like ROK literally moved out of Poverty to become developed countries. China has 19 neighbors and adversarial relationship with almost all of them. The disadvantages of Chinese economic system and demographic imbalance are not visible from distance. Their energy has to pass through two choke points and their main commodity exporter is a ally of US. edited: changed vassal to ally.. but poor Australia does not have much choice. It has to be Tonto for the global maritime power.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  It seems, in general, you are talking about China replacing the US. The US no longer being hegemon doesn't imply China is. I.e., your argument is a straw-man. China may never become hegemon. But the idea that the US is invincible like it was 10 years ago, is simply untrue anyore. Pride comes before the fall - no one ever expected goliath to fall, but sometimes, goliath does.
  - sremani 6y ago
    US may lose will to police the world, but with Space Force and 11 super carriers - if you mess with 'Murica... KNOCK KNOCK! Still 24% of WORLD GDP and Still Young and produces 2x food and sufficient amount energy including Renewables. Read up on capabilities of US Navy - the underwriter of global maritime security and who is going to challenge with few exceptions. If the World fragments -- somebody got to supply the weapons!!!
  - bassman9000 6y ago
    It is not a straw man. OP was talking about the demise of the US. Demise compared to what? Seems China is the only "rising star" that can take a similar position. How are you going to measure the demise if not comparing to the closest thing to a peer? And I disagree too, and not focusing only on China: is there any other country, in the Earth, closer to true autarky, than the US? NOT saying the US is close. I'm asking: could any other country be as independent as the US of international relationships, including trading? Strong internal market, plenty of industry, plenty of new technologies and talent, plenty of resources, can feed itself, has clean water, access to 2 oceans, access to space, vast amounts of land, strong military with unparalleled projection...
crisdux 6y ago
I think people look too much at our recent ills and project that to their view of American's place in the world. When looking at things with a historic perspective, I think it's hard not to see that we may be at a period where the American century is just getting started. The US still has a lot of advantages. The best geography in the world for food, energy, transport, physical security. The best security apparatus. Favorable demographics. The largest group of dynamic and diverse people and economy in the world. Outside of North America, the American system does not need trade with the wider world to survive and prosper. The United States is one of the very few countries in the world that does not need to consider security(food, energy, physical, etc) when it interacts with the rest of the world. That grants it huge flexibility. The US hasn't had a coherent foreign policy for 30 years. This domestic funk may last a decade, but some day Americans will figure out what they want from the rest of the world. Until then, the rest of the world should be happy America is taking a break. I admit that I may be coming at this from too much of an American point of view.
- angelbar 6y ago
  Agree.... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21926865-the-accidental-superpower https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21926865-the-accidental-... The democratic process is screwed in my opinion, but yes...
  - sremani 6y ago
    Zeihan is Awesome. The Case against China was well articulated by him in his latest book : "Disunited Nations: The Scramble for Power in an Ungoverned World".
- subsubzero 6y ago
  Agree. If you think of a country that can dethrone the US, its really only one player, China. The other countries (Germany, Japan, Russia) are very far behind in terms of military might, commerce, and also population. Given the US also has considerable amounts of land/resources(oil, minerals, timber, farming land) and a lions share of the worlds largest companies(Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Chevron, Wal-Mart, Google, Intel, P&G, Exxon to name some) its hard to say the US is going anywhere anytime soon. I feel like a lot of this negativity right now is based on the covid-19 pandemic which btw the whole world is suffering not just the US. Think things are bad in the US? at least it didn't suffer a 20% drop in GDP like the UK did [1], sure the US has the most cases, but looking at mortality the US is roughly middle of the pack at 3.2% [2] [1] - https://www.ft.com/content/c8b172e2-8f70-4118-9e81-423e9a4b6839 https://www.ft.com/content/c8b172e2-8f70-4118-9e81-423e9a4b6... [2] - https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
GhostVII 6y ago
If the US is in decline, when was it in a better position than it is now (COVID aside)? I think things in the US have not been improving as quickly as in many other countries, and the US is certainly behind countries like Canada when it comes to things like healthcare, but the US is certainly trending in a positive direction by most metrics. Just look at the crime rates over the last 20 years, or life expectancy, income mortality, median income - they have all been improving. I often see people online act as if the US is some "third world" country, and while they certainly have problems, and probably more problems than many other western countries, there still aren't that many places in the world where it is normal to own a large house in a safe area with a 30k car and no concerns about how you are going to pay for food.
- tspike 6y ago
  In relative terms, I think it's safe to say the US was in a better position during the 90s than it is now. The USSR fell apart, China wasn't a real rival, our alliances were at their strongest, and we were running a budget surplus with undisputed control over the global economy.
greatjack613 6y ago
Respectfully you sound like a classic CCP propagandist. No logic, no reasoning, just bashing the U.S while hiding china's crimes. The biggest proof that the U.S has a future vs china, is that I have many great chinese engineering friends who have emigrated, ALL of them love the U.S.A and MOST of them are upset with the way the CCP has acted in regards to IP, human rights, and hong kong. I don't hear the same about people moving from the U.S to china, please keep your CCP propaganda to yourself.
- dang 6y ago
  You can't post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how strongly you disagree. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules. Edit: you've done this repeatedly (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23864391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23864391). Not cool. We ban accounts that repeatedly break the guidelines, especially when they ignore our requests to stop, so please fix this.
  - greatjack613 6y ago
    That is fair, will gladly delete, but it appears I cannot since it is flagged. 1 Question, people post the same kind of comment just pro china, I am just taking the other side. Is there a way for me to report those comments to you so that I do not need to break the rules by responding to such a comment with a comment?
    - dang 6y ago
      You can report a comment by flagging it (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html) or, if it's really egregious, by emailing hn@ycombinator.com.
      - greatjack613 6y ago
        Got it, will do that in the future
jorblumesea 6y ago
How can we debate such a poorly sourced and clearly inflammatory post? Anyone who starts a debate with "demise of the already broken US" isn't asking for legitimate discussion. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms and geopolitical analysis of the current issues but you're not contributing to the debate at all. This is just "US bad" level of discussion that educates no one.
dang 6y ago
Unsubstantive flamebait makes for poor HN comments. If you want to start a substantive discussion, include more information in what you say, not just a drive-by oneliner. Especially on provocative topics like nationalistic ones. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (Please note also the second-last guideline, against going on about downvotes.)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

This would just hasten the demise of the already broken US. Lot's of silent downvotes - I'm happy to debate, do not be afraid to comment and tell me what you disagree with.

spiderfarmer 6y ago

The Covid crisis showed perfectly just how broken the US is. The country in its current state is hopelessly divided, terribly corrupt and it doesn’t have a functioning government or healthcare system. Politicians and civilians seem to pride themselves in making dumb and arrogant statements that show their lack of knowledge and experience. Democracy seems on the chopping block too. Trump is a major cause of this broken image, but for my generation it really started with the potential vice president Sarah Palin. As a European I can say that the only people who still look up to the USA as a great country are the people who base their views on Hollywood instead of the news.

dwater 6y ago
I don't know what generation you are, but for my generation it started with Newt Gingrich and the "Moral Majority"'s intentional stonewalling and dismantling of government.
- thewebcount 6y ago
  It definitely goes back to at least Reagan saying that government is the cause of all of our problems, but it's probably earlier than that. I have a vague recollection of Nixon saying something similar, but can't remember the details.
- toby 6y ago
  There's a great podcast about this: https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/transcript https://www.thisamericanlife.org/662/transcript To me the most interesting part was about how Tip O'Neill and Ronald Reagan were pretty close friends: "Then one day, I picked up the paper and read where he had made a statement about me that was pretty harsh. And I called him, and I said, Tip, I thought we had a relationship here, where we could do business together. And, oh, now, I read in the paper that you said-- And he interrupted me and said, well, buddy, that's just politics. He said, after 6 o'clock, we're buddies. We're friends. I did take it that every once in a while, when we had a meeting, I would visibly set my watch at above 6 o'clock."
fermienrico 6y ago
> As a European I can say that the only people who still look up to the USA as a great country are the people who base their views on Hollywood instead of the news. Not sure what to say about this - I don't think anyone believes what America is on the basis of Hollywood. America is 50 states and depending on which state you're referring to - quality and standard of living, incoming, happiness, etc varies. It is like looking at the state of Romania and basing your views about Sweden, both EU nations.
- spiderfarmer 6y ago
  I went to visit LA 10 years ago. I somehow expected nice roads and well maintained infrastructure, because that is what you see in the movies. It was a shock for me to see how shoddy everything looked.
  - fermienrico 6y ago
    Definitely, American infrastructure is crumbling in big cities. It is really bad. Roads in SF have pot holes everywhere, the whole thing smells. It is awful. Did you visit Lake Tahoe and any of the National Parks? The country side infrastructure usually is excellent and well maintained. Certain states are better - Colorado and Utah have excellent roads even in the cities. Phoenix, Arizona is same.
war1025 6y ago
> As a European I can say that the only people who still look up to the USA as a great country are the people who base their views on Hollywood instead of the news. For many in the US, the opinions of Hollywood and the major news outlets are equally inaccurate and irrelevant. Consider that the US is more comparable to the EU as a whole than any individual country in the EU, and a lot of things regarding US politics start to make more sense.
- User23 6y ago
  The United States is best viewed as 50 little countries. Culturally Louisiana is as different from North Dakota as France is from Sweden. Our federal government is increasingly powerful, but State sovereignty isn't just a paper promise. The States retain significant real authority and can effectively rebuff the federal government if the political will exists. For better or for worse though, the power of the States has been on a downward trajectory for over a century. Nevertheless the strong fiscal, monetary, and military union between the States has been hugely beneficial in most respects. The EU on the other hand is broken by design[1]. It appears to be largely forgotten now, but the framers of the EU were well aware that monetary union without fiscal union was unsustainable in the long term. They, perhaps unwisely, assumed that reasonable compromises would be reached in relatively short order. [1] https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v14/n19/wynne-godley/maastricht-and-all-that https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v14/n19/wynne-godley/maastri...
dfsegoat 6y ago
I Love America. I don’t think the problems you describe are unique to the US. > ‘and it doesn’t have a functioning government or healthcare system’ Can you elaborate here? I can have no job or health insurance, and I can obtain treatment at the hospital. Likewise, I participate in city council and roundtables with city and state officials. They listen to the community and policy changes are affected based on that. Govt seems to work pretty well locally. Federal govt is not relevant at that level. Could it all be better? Sure. But your hyperbole is a bit much.
- newacct583 6y ago
  > I can have no job or health insurance, and I can obtain treatment at the hospital. For emergency care, yes. Not for an MRI or a hip replacement or dialysis or physical therapy or cancer treatments or prostheses or cataract surgery or... This is this weird myth that won't die. It's absolutely true that emergency rooms are universally required to treat anyone who walks in the door. It's also true that ER care makes up something like 3% of US health care delivered.
  - alcatrash 6y ago
    "I can have no job..." 50 million people in the US are on Medicare or Medicaid, and can and do absolutely receive those services, based on age or income level. The ones who cannot are those whose income is too high for those service and choose to forgo or cannot afford health insurance.
    - katbyte 6y ago
      And then pay deductibles and co pays and god forbid your out of network.. your making excuses for a broken system which most of the 1st world surpasses in almost every way
      - spiderfarmer 6y ago
        My family of 5 pays just 240 euro’s per month. That covers everything.
taeric 6y ago
I wouldn't be too quick to point to Covid as evidence of anything, yet. Unless you are just wanting to say that we have a very divided landscape. Even then, used to be there were lynching and other horrid acts. I wouldn't claim we are past all horrors, but nor do I see any reason to think they are actually getting worse. Just more light on them. (And I am hopeful that that is a good thing, for the arc of progress.)
- newacct583 6y ago
  > I wouldn't be too quick to point to Covid as evidence of anything, yet. It's evidence of something. The US covid response is a distinct, notable, and quite frankly disastrous outlier in the industrial world. No one handled this as badly as we did, objectively. Shouldn't we be looking for an explanation for that? And maybe taking lessons that might hold for other things we're doing badly?
  - taeric 6y ago
    Without a counterfactual, it is hard to know what could have made it better. I'm personally very sceptical that we know what could have made things better. This is while still being dismayed at how crappy leadership has been. So, I think we'll know more in a few years. Hopefully we learn enough that we make better choices next time. As things are standing though, my money is on prior exposure to corona and sars being the largest contributors to places that have "done better." And we aren't out of the woods, yet, as it were. If that is the case, most of what we are seeing is just more evidence that the majority vote lost out last time. Such that now we are seeing the majority is still upset about that.
    - newacct583 6y ago
      > Without a counterfactual, it is hard to know what could have made it better. You realize there are dozens of other nations that saw the same virus, right? That seems like a nonsensical response to me, as if you're asking "Well, who could have known?". Well, Germany. Germany seems to have known. Also Japan, Korea, Canada, Australia, New Zealand (especially those guys)... Even nations like Spain and Belgium, which had disastrous early outbreaks got it under control at a time when we had a huge second wave. You really don't think we have anything to learn from that data? > my money is on prior exposure to corona and sars being the largest contributors to places that have "done better." Uh... what? Let's ignore the pseudoscience argument and just talk demographics: you're saying that the United States, alone among all nations in the industrialized world, was unique in that it had no prior exposure to pre-existing coronavirii. Everywhere else in the industrialized world, every nation, had large pre-existing immunity? That's what you're going with? And you think that makes sense?
AviationAtom 6y ago
Might I temporarily diverge from the immediate topic at hand and ask you views on the Romani people?
onepointsixC 6y ago
Considering that the US is so corrupt, with non functioning government and/or health care systems, why are EU per capita death rates close to the American ones? In the presumably more competent, wealthier, and more generous Western European nations, a majority of them have death rates which exceed the US. Why? Furthermore given the significantly greater number of cases shouldn't US death rates be significantly greater if it's healthcare system is non functional?
- katbyte 6y ago
  America is still in the top 10? And I think the big difference is all the other countries are well past the peak while America is accelerating into a second just as bad as the first?
  - onepointsixC 6y ago
    Europe appears to be also accelerating into a second wave as well[1]. [1]: https://time.com/5876132/europe-coronavirus-second-wave/ https://time.com/5876132/europe-coronavirus-second-wave/
- spiderfarmer 6y ago
  Why compare EU countries to the US? Why not countries with states?
  - onepointsixC 6y ago
    Okay, fine let's compare country to country: The UK, Belgium, Italy, Sweden, and Spain all have worse if not significantly worse mortality rates per capita [1]. Why have they performed worse than the "terribly corrupt" and nonfunctioning government and or healthcare system of the US? Furthermore France, while having a lower mortality rate, is still within 10% of America's. That a whole lot of Western Europe right there which doesn't anything to show for your implied superiority. That's not to say there aren't European countries which have done better, there are: Germany, Denmark, Ireland, Netherlands, have thus far have significantly lower death rates per capita. How can you off handily suggest that the US is non functioning and broke while still beating countries which make up half of the EU, by population? [1]: https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality
gwright 6y ago
> As a European I can say that the only people who still look up to the USA as a great country are the people who base their views on Hollywood instead of the news. Basing your view on the "news" is a huge mistake. Mass media portrayal of the US (or really of any country) is much closer to a constructed narrative than a transparent view of "reality". Do you think US "news" portrays Europe accurately? (honest question)
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Stronger: For the last several years, the US has been the target of a disinformation and agitprop campaign. (Or more than one. And it doesn't really matter if the origin of the campaign is domestic, so you have to count the Republican and Democratic machines, which both paint a picture that things are terrible, and our side is the only one that can fix it.) That doesn't make it easy to form a realistic assessment of how good or bad things are...
cactus2093 6y ago
As an American, I have to say I agree and it is sad and frightening to see. It has been a long-time coming that the US has been getting more and more stagnant and unable to do certain things. It's like we've been on a freighter headed for an iceberg, and the rudder is broken so we're all just watching it in slow motion. Look at infrastructure projects, healthcare, college costs, housing, global warming, etc. They've been obvious, impending issues for decades and we've just sat by and done nothing while they become bigger and bigger problems for more and more people. Still, at least in my opinion, America has continued to have a "superpower" of innovation in other, less constrained areas. Many of the brightest, most ambitious people in the world have continued to come here and do amazing things, as they have for the past century. And when things have been truly dire even fairly recently, like the '08 financial crisis or even 9/11, we've managed to take action and address it. In hindsight there were obviously major flaws to our responses to those things, but they were over-reactions rather than inaction, and were arguably still better than doing nothing (with the notable exception of the war in Iraq, but that had a lot of more complex causes and wasn't necessarily America's direct response to 9/11). For me personally, this is what makes the current moment so devastating to watch, and why I have started feeling like this time is different. We've had one of the top 5 biggest threats of American lives in all of history with Covid-19, and the federal response has been just ignoring it. On top of that, we're now going full steam ahead on shutting down or severely limiting immigration. That strikes me as just about the most idiotic, and profoundly un-American thing I can think of. These things take time to cause major shifts so I am hopeful we still have a couple of years to correct the course before the effects start to compound too much, but it feels like a particularly fragile time and the future could go either way at this point.

ed25519FUUU 6y ago

Or rather America is waking up and realizing that sending it’s entire industrialized base to China was a bad idea. Or realizing that China’s “partnership” program is really a thin veil for stealing American IP and technology. It’s better to steal than to create. Just take a look at the new Chinese steal fighter and it’s resemblance to the F-35 steal tech [1] It’s about recognizing reality, not vilifying another world power. 1. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-j-20-stealth-fighter-built-stolen-f-35-technology-89586 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/chinas-j-20-stealth-f...

pinkfoot 6y ago
< the new Chinese steal fighter and it’s resemblance to the F-35 steal[th] tech Modulo that all stealthy fighters will look somewhat similar, you do know why the F-35 looks like the Russian Yak-141? Yakolev was in a IP-technology-transfer with agreement with Lockheed Martin from 1991 to 1995 (approx) to show LM how it was done. [1] https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/did-old-russian-jet-help-inspire-f-35-44777 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/did-old-russian-jet-h...
AviationAtom 6y ago
It's always fun to try to explain that in America intellectual property is seen as rightfully yours, on the basis of it being original, while in China they see absolutely no wrong in ripping off an original idea, in fact it's encouraged and seen as a form of flattery. Totally different ways of thinking, but people presume everyone thinks in the same way as they think, so it's an entirely foreign concept to them.

fermienrico 6y ago

You’re making a blanket statement of “America is dead”. What do you expect? If you have specific things you want to discuss, please do so. “X country is leading to demise” - that’s a pretty powerful statement to make unless you’re talking about a stateless country.

c1sc0 6y ago
I’ll bite. Looking in from the outside the US is in terminal decline because it lacks: * a viable education system which has led to the current wave of anti-science sentiment. * a viable healthcare system which is causing people to get in debt over the smallest of medical issues. * a viable political system which represents the will of the people. * a viable economy where the younger generation can expect to do better than their parents.
- mc32 6y ago
  What are you classifying as “anti-science”. We might have anti-vaxxers and people who are redefining sexes in non biological ways (not saying there isn’t a valid non scientific reason for this), etc., but I don’t think people are anti science. Basic health for people not covered I grant you that is a problem but it’s not a unique one in the world. It does represent the people; however since things are more or less 50:50 but polarized, it’s impossible to please two diametrical sentiments simultaneously. Once your economy is mature one cannot expect to have indefinite growth whereby descendants do better than predecessors. We can teach a better stasis if we don’t allow undermining (like shipping jobs overseas and bringing in low wage workers to upset the economic stasis.
- bserge 6y ago
  1. Fixable without "the demise of the USA". But it probably won't be, as enough people have good enough education to get by. 2. Again, enough people get by, it'd have to be a majority protesting/rioting for things to change. And they can be changed without the country dying. 3. Not unique to the US, sadly. But the government is nowhere near authoritarian enough for people to risk dying to change it. 4. It's one of the world's biggest and healthiest economies, and it's kind of rare in the whole modern world for the younger generation to do better than their parents. With remote work and automation becoming normal, it may be possible for people to live and work in cheaper places. Even as it is, the US can continue to function for decades, even centuries, more or less. I just don't see it in terminal decline.

newyankee 6y ago

It is also likely that both China and USA will thrive in their own worlds after the big initial shock of 3-4 years which will lead to realignment of the supply chains, currency exchange changes etc as long as the countries do not have armed conflicts because it would be in the interests of neither.

net2net2net 6y ago

Seethe more. It is very unbecoming.

sremani 6y ago

Demise of US is overrated. The Geographic, Demographic, Intellectual advantages of America are not easily replicable. Add to the mix Shale/Energy Independence and brining back reasonable amount of supply chain back to North America. China does not stand a chance. Look at their BRI track record. Every ally of US during Cold war benefitted economically and places like ROK literally moved out of Poverty to become developed countries. China has 19 neighbors and adversarial relationship with almost all of them. The disadvantages of Chinese economic system and demographic imbalance are not visible from distance. Their energy has to pass through two choke points and their main commodity exporter is a ally of US. edited: changed vassal to ally.. but poor Australia does not have much choice. It has to be Tonto for the global maritime power.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
It seems, in general, you are talking about China replacing the US. The US no longer being hegemon doesn't imply China is. I.e., your argument is a straw-man. China may never become hegemon. But the idea that the US is invincible like it was 10 years ago, is simply untrue anyore. Pride comes before the fall - no one ever expected goliath to fall, but sometimes, goliath does.
- sremani 6y ago
  US may lose will to police the world, but with Space Force and 11 super carriers - if you mess with 'Murica... KNOCK KNOCK! Still 24% of WORLD GDP and Still Young and produces 2x food and sufficient amount energy including Renewables. Read up on capabilities of US Navy - the underwriter of global maritime security and who is going to challenge with few exceptions. If the World fragments -- somebody got to supply the weapons!!!
- bassman9000 6y ago
  It is not a straw man. OP was talking about the demise of the US. Demise compared to what? Seems China is the only "rising star" that can take a similar position. How are you going to measure the demise if not comparing to the closest thing to a peer? And I disagree too, and not focusing only on China: is there any other country, in the Earth, closer to true autarky, than the US? NOT saying the US is close. I'm asking: could any other country be as independent as the US of international relationships, including trading? Strong internal market, plenty of industry, plenty of new technologies and talent, plenty of resources, can feed itself, has clean water, access to 2 oceans, access to space, vast amounts of land, strong military with unparalleled projection...

crisdux 6y ago

I think people look too much at our recent ills and project that to their view of American's place in the world. When looking at things with a historic perspective, I think it's hard not to see that we may be at a period where the American century is just getting started. The US still has a lot of advantages. The best geography in the world for food, energy, transport, physical security. The best security apparatus. Favorable demographics. The largest group of dynamic and diverse people and economy in the world. Outside of North America, the American system does not need trade with the wider world to survive and prosper. The United States is one of the very few countries in the world that does not need to consider security(food, energy, physical, etc) when it interacts with the rest of the world. That grants it huge flexibility. The US hasn't had a coherent foreign policy for 30 years. This domestic funk may last a decade, but some day Americans will figure out what they want from the rest of the world. Until then, the rest of the world should be happy America is taking a break. I admit that I may be coming at this from too much of an American point of view.

angelbar 6y ago
Agree.... https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21926865-the-accidental-superpower https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/21926865-the-accidental-... The democratic process is screwed in my opinion, but yes...
- sremani 6y ago
  Zeihan is Awesome. The Case against China was well articulated by him in his latest book : "Disunited Nations: The Scramble for Power in an Ungoverned World".
subsubzero 6y ago
Agree. If you think of a country that can dethrone the US, its really only one player, China. The other countries (Germany, Japan, Russia) are very far behind in terms of military might, commerce, and also population. Given the US also has considerable amounts of land/resources(oil, minerals, timber, farming land) and a lions share of the worlds largest companies(Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Chevron, Wal-Mart, Google, Intel, P&G, Exxon to name some) its hard to say the US is going anywhere anytime soon. I feel like a lot of this negativity right now is based on the covid-19 pandemic which btw the whole world is suffering not just the US. Think things are bad in the US? at least it didn't suffer a 20% drop in GDP like the UK did [1], sure the US has the most cases, but looking at mortality the US is roughly middle of the pack at 3.2% [2] [1] - https://www.ft.com/content/c8b172e2-8f70-4118-9e81-423e9a4b6839 https://www.ft.com/content/c8b172e2-8f70-4118-9e81-423e9a4b6... [2] - https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

GhostVII 6y ago

If the US is in decline, when was it in a better position than it is now (COVID aside)? I think things in the US have not been improving as quickly as in many other countries, and the US is certainly behind countries like Canada when it comes to things like healthcare, but the US is certainly trending in a positive direction by most metrics. Just look at the crime rates over the last 20 years, or life expectancy, income mortality, median income - they have all been improving. I often see people online act as if the US is some "third world" country, and while they certainly have problems, and probably more problems than many other western countries, there still aren't that many places in the world where it is normal to own a large house in a safe area with a 30k car and no concerns about how you are going to pay for food.

tspike 6y ago
In relative terms, I think it's safe to say the US was in a better position during the 90s than it is now. The USSR fell apart, China wasn't a real rival, our alliances were at their strongest, and we were running a budget surplus with undisputed control over the global economy.

greatjack613 6y ago

Respectfully you sound like a classic CCP propagandist. No logic, no reasoning, just bashing the U.S while hiding china's crimes. The biggest proof that the U.S has a future vs china, is that I have many great chinese engineering friends who have emigrated, ALL of them love the U.S.A and MOST of them are upset with the way the CCP has acted in regards to IP, human rights, and hong kong. I don't hear the same about people moving from the U.S to china, please keep your CCP propaganda to yourself.

dang 6y ago
You can't post like this here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or how strongly you disagree. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules. Edit: you've done this repeatedly (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23864391 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23864391). Not cool. We ban accounts that repeatedly break the guidelines, especially when they ignore our requests to stop, so please fix this.
- greatjack613 6y ago
  That is fair, will gladly delete, but it appears I cannot since it is flagged. 1 Question, people post the same kind of comment just pro china, I am just taking the other side. Is there a way for me to report those comments to you so that I do not need to break the rules by responding to such a comment with a comment?
  - dang 6y ago
    You can report a comment by flagging it (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html) or, if it's really egregious, by emailing hn@ycombinator.com.
    - greatjack613 6y ago
      Got it, will do that in the future

jorblumesea 6y ago

How can we debate such a poorly sourced and clearly inflammatory post? Anyone who starts a debate with "demise of the already broken US" isn't asking for legitimate discussion. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms and geopolitical analysis of the current issues but you're not contributing to the debate at all. This is just "US bad" level of discussion that educates no one.

dang 6y ago

Unsubstantive flamebait makes for poor HN comments. If you want to start a substantive discussion, include more information in what you say, not just a drive-by oneliner. Especially on provocative topics like nationalistic ones. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (Please note also the second-last guideline, against going on about downvotes.)

deleted 6y ago
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