4 ms·

It's unrealistic to not promote people. If you run a "flat" organization, you're telling your employees "I don't care that your resume indicates no progression

by ibejoeb 16y ago

It's unrealistic to not promote people. If you run a "flat" organization, you're telling your employees "I don't care that your resume indicates no progression." That's a real career limiter, and it can be perceived as an underhanded way to retain talent. Also, more pragmatically, how realistic is it to have 30 direct reports?

dhh 16y ago
Is "unrealistic" a version of "that wouldn't work in the real world"? Of course it's realistic. Jason is describing how things actually work at 37signals, not how he'd wish them to be. So we have an entire staff of programmers, many who has been with us for years and years, who started out as "senior programmer" and has stayed with that title. The progression has been measured in salary.
andrewflnr 16y ago
Doesn't "My salary kept getting raised because I kicked butt" also mean something on your résumé?
- mgkimsal 16y ago
  You don't typically put a salary on a CV.
  - jarin 16y ago
    I would probably have no problem putting "My salary kept getting raised because I kicked butt" on my resume. If they can get past the fact that I worked at a porn company, a little grandstanding probably won't hurt.
    - acangiano 16y ago
      > If they can get past the fact that I worked at a porn company, Employers that worry about this are rather silly. I'd hire a candidate even if he was starring in said porn productions.
      - jarin 16y ago
        I'm kind of surprised at how most of my former co-workers will not put the common name of the company (which is not offensive or profane) on their resumes and put the legal name instead (the legal name is pretty generic-sounding). Some have even requested that I change the name on my LinkedIn profile or mark it as "I worked with so-and-so at different companies" so they won't be directly associated with it. Maybe it's just a scarcity mentality thing; they're worried about turning off potential employers, but when you're constantly getting contacted by recruiters I guess it's hard to feel like it's a disadvantage.
bowmande 16y ago
I would think working for 37 signals alone would be a big enough evidence of how awesome you are. Also the kind of company that is looking at your "progression" probably isn't the place to go.
- ibejoeb 16y ago
  Maybe for a designer. What about the accounting clerks, administrative assistants, CSRs, etc. that any company of size needs? It's "unrealistic" because there are social realities that exist outside of the valley and tech blogs. It's true that it's a good company, and it's true that it's a darling company here, but there will be sectors that haven't heard of these kinds of places. And, again, once you hit something of size, some delineation is a necessity. You don't have to model the Marine Corps, but when you have 30 people arguing over something, the buck has to stop somewhere.
  - dhh 16y ago
    Unrealistic implies that it's not going to actually take place. It is taking place. We've been running like this for years. We've had very little turn-over and remain good friends with people who left. So it seems to be working out excellently for people presently and formerly employed by 37signals. The buck always stops somewhere. Whether you're two people or three people. At 37signals, the buck stops with Jason and me. Now it happens to be that when you employ smart craftsmen and women who care about what they do, there's very few loose bucks to stop.
plusbryan 16y ago
I disagree that this would appear a "career limiter" to smart people. Most people in tech work for the same company for only a few years, so it's challenging to make any significant career advancement within an organization. But give them an opportunity to serve as team lead on a successful project or several, and you've got plenty of resume mojo to spread around to everyone.
JesseDearing 16y ago
Maybe your title won't reflect your progression, but if you list responsibilities and things learned on your resumé then that would be a clear indicator of progression.
cwp 16y ago
Whoa... cultural whiplash. I get that there might be places where this kind of thing is a concern. Really, I do. But I can't imagine applying to work at a company where they'd look at the line on my resume that says "3 years at 37signals" and worry that I hadn't been promoted in all that time.

by ibejoeb 16y ago

dhh 16y ago

Is "unrealistic" a version of "that wouldn't work in the real world"? Of course it's realistic. Jason is describing how things actually work at 37signals, not how he'd wish them to be. So we have an entire staff of programmers, many who has been with us for years and years, who started out as "senior programmer" and has stayed with that title. The progression has been measured in salary.

andrewflnr 16y ago

Doesn't "My salary kept getting raised because I kicked butt" also mean something on your résumé?

mgkimsal 16y ago
You don't typically put a salary on a CV.
- jarin 16y ago
  I would probably have no problem putting "My salary kept getting raised because I kicked butt" on my resume. If they can get past the fact that I worked at a porn company, a little grandstanding probably won't hurt.
  - acangiano 16y ago
    > If they can get past the fact that I worked at a porn company, Employers that worry about this are rather silly. I'd hire a candidate even if he was starring in said porn productions.
    - jarin 16y ago
      I'm kind of surprised at how most of my former co-workers will not put the common name of the company (which is not offensive or profane) on their resumes and put the legal name instead (the legal name is pretty generic-sounding). Some have even requested that I change the name on my LinkedIn profile or mark it as "I worked with so-and-so at different companies" so they won't be directly associated with it. Maybe it's just a scarcity mentality thing; they're worried about turning off potential employers, but when you're constantly getting contacted by recruiters I guess it's hard to feel like it's a disadvantage.

bowmande 16y ago

I would think working for 37 signals alone would be a big enough evidence of how awesome you are. Also the kind of company that is looking at your "progression" probably isn't the place to go.

ibejoeb 16y ago
Maybe for a designer. What about the accounting clerks, administrative assistants, CSRs, etc. that any company of size needs? It's "unrealistic" because there are social realities that exist outside of the valley and tech blogs. It's true that it's a good company, and it's true that it's a darling company here, but there will be sectors that haven't heard of these kinds of places. And, again, once you hit something of size, some delineation is a necessity. You don't have to model the Marine Corps, but when you have 30 people arguing over something, the buck has to stop somewhere.
- dhh 16y ago
  Unrealistic implies that it's not going to actually take place. It is taking place. We've been running like this for years. We've had very little turn-over and remain good friends with people who left. So it seems to be working out excellently for people presently and formerly employed by 37signals. The buck always stops somewhere. Whether you're two people or three people. At 37signals, the buck stops with Jason and me. Now it happens to be that when you employ smart craftsmen and women who care about what they do, there's very few loose bucks to stop.

plusbryan 16y ago

I disagree that this would appear a "career limiter" to smart people. Most people in tech work for the same company for only a few years, so it's challenging to make any significant career advancement within an organization. But give them an opportunity to serve as team lead on a successful project or several, and you've got plenty of resume mojo to spread around to everyone.

JesseDearing 16y ago

Maybe your title won't reflect your progression, but if you list responsibilities and things learned on your resumé then that would be a clear indicator of progression.

cwp 16y ago

Whoa... cultural whiplash. I get that there might be places where this kind of thing is a concern. Really, I do. But I can't imagine applying to work at a company where they'd look at the line on my resume that says "3 years at 37signals" and worry that I hadn't been promoted in all that time.