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Do you not see programming as a trade? Do you not see accounting as a trade? Nursing? Medicine? Law? Pharmacology? I would consider all of those “trades.” The

Do you not see programming as a trade? Do you not see accounting as a trade? Nursing? Medicine? Law? Pharmacology? I would consider all of those “trades.” The non-trade courses of study aren’t particularly popular with college students anymore. I don’t know many people with degrees in english or latin or history or philosophy. And the few that I do always planned to go to trade school (law school) so their undergrad course of study didn’t much matter.

ceilingcorner 6y ago
No one considers these things trades. Trades and trade school have a very specific meaning in contemporary American English.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> I would consider all of those “trades.” Well good luck communicating with other people because is not how anyone else anywhere uses the word ‘trade’. They’re not ‘trades’ they’re ‘professions’. And I would guess you already know this and you’re trying to be contrary rather than you’re genuinely misunderstanding a basic word.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  I’m not being contrary at all. Nor do I think I’ve grossly misunderstood the word. Haven’t you ever been to a trade show - a meeting of people from one profession? I don’t think I’ve used the word outside of its definition: > 3. b : the business or work in which one engages regularly : OCCUPATION > 3. c : the persons engaged in an occupation, business, or industry https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trade https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trade
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    If you take your definition then all jobs are trades, in which case why do you think we have the word trade if it doesn’t add any new meaning, and what do you think a ‘profession‘ is? Have you never heard people make a distinction between tradespeople and professionals? What do you think the words in this article mean? Are they completely new concepts to you? https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-manual/bim14010 https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-man... > A ‘profession’ historically meant the three learned professions of the Church, Medicine and the Law but today the term goes much wider and normally involves some substantial exercise of intellectual skill.
    - elliekelly 6y ago
      It’s quite unnecessary for you to be so condescending. Of course I’m familiar with other uses of the word. Are you? Why are you so upset by what I’ve said? What is the distinction between a chef trained at a vocational school and a lawyer trained at a law school? Or a programmer trained at Stanford? Chefs produce something tangible, you might say. Lawyers do, too. We draft briefs and contracts and court filings. Or maybe you’ll point out that a chef has learned a skill that takes a certain je ne sais quoi that cant be taught but can only be acquired with deliberate practice? I would say the same of programmers. (And attorneys, for that matter.) Coding is as much an art as it is a science. And I don’t think the document you’ve linked excludes professional trades. Lawyers and doctors and programmers all provide a service: > ‘Trade’ therefore takes its ordinary meaning, which normally involves commercial operations by a trader who provides goods or services to his or her customers in exchange for a reward.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > What is the distinction between a chef trained at a vocational school and a lawyer trained at a law school? One is considered by society to be a 'tradesperson', while the other is considered a 'professional'. Society considers law to not be a 'trade' because it is a 'profession' instead and society sees these as mutually exclusive by definition. I think what you really mean is you don't agree with society's definitions. That's fine - it's an interesting discussion and I didn't express any opinion on it myself. But I don't think you were ever really mistaken about what the original comment meant - you were feigning confusion as a rhetorical device, which is why I think other people down-voted you.
        elliekelly 6y ago
        Please don’t speak for me. I wasn’t “feigning” anything and I meant exactly what I said.
  - unishark 6y ago
    I'd say the defining feature of a trade show is businesses demonstrating their specialized products for members of the profession. The word "show" is also important here. Without that, a meeting of a profession is commonly called a conference.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  Computer software development has none of the characteristics of a profession, either. There's no licensure, no guild, no liability, and many people practice it without formal training. The software industry would benefit from moving in the direction of being either a "trade" without the manual labor, or toward being a real profession, but it currently occupies a weird middle ground.
  - ceilingcorner 6y ago
    TBH I think this is a feature, not a bug. Over-credentializing coding will limit creativity. If you want a better existing paradigm, consider design (as in the broad field of design, which includes graphic, fashion, industrial, etc.)
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      That's fine with me because I favor the trade direction. I tell my mentees to make things in good taste that they're proud to show people, like a cabinet maker.
    - room500 6y ago
      After dealing with many legacy projects from "creative" developers, I don't think standardizing on some basic practices would be a bad thing
      - jquery 6y ago
        That might increase efficiency but I bet it would reduce joy. As someone who joined the industry for the joy aspect, not the efficiency and money aspect, that’s not very appealing to me. Besides, I think standardization is already happening and being rewarded in the form of higher salaries for people who are fluent in modern frameworks and practices.
  - 0xffff2 6y ago
    >There's no licensure, no guild, no liability, Those are all things that are near-universally features of working a trade, so what exactly is the difference between a trade and a profession?
- kolbe 6y ago
  The distinction is purely a classist one. But functionally speaking, going to nursing school (a trade school) and going to medical school (a professional school) are the same concept, but with one side rebranding themselves as to not be associated with the lower class variant of their work. You’re right there is a legitimate distinction, but maybe we should stop. It is 2020 and thinking you’re “better” than other people for relatively arbitrary reasons is passé.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    Yes there's still some funny distinctions being made - like in the UK some apartments are advertised as 'professionals only' and only 'professionals, teachers, and police officers' are allowed to sign and witness some documents I believe for some reason.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      Wow. In California it is not lawful to even advertise housing that way, much less actually enforce it.
    - pmyteh 6y ago
      The list of people who can witness passport applications in the UK is quite interesting. It's got all the usual jobs you'd expect (lawyers, doctors, clergy etc.) and then a set of other jobs which are wildly diverse: childminders, for example, accountants, military officers... The common factor turns out to be accountability. If the childminder falsely certifies an application, Ofsted will revoke her registration for dishonesty. A military officer will be cashiered. A teacher sacked and added to the barring list. So even those posts which are not 'professional' have enough consequences for acting falsely that the state relies on them to be honest.
watwut 6y ago
I would not count them as trades, because people typically talk about trades when they talk about work that requires manual or mechanical skills. I never seen anyone talk about medicine as a trade nor mean doctor when they said trade.

ceilingcorner 6y ago

No one considers these things trades. Trades and trade school have a very specific meaning in contemporary American English.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> I would consider all of those “trades.” Well good luck communicating with other people because is not how anyone else anywhere uses the word ‘trade’. They’re not ‘trades’ they’re ‘professions’. And I would guess you already know this and you’re trying to be contrary rather than you’re genuinely misunderstanding a basic word.

elliekelly 6y ago
I’m not being contrary at all. Nor do I think I’ve grossly misunderstood the word. Haven’t you ever been to a trade show - a meeting of people from one profession? I don’t think I’ve used the word outside of its definition: > 3. b : the business or work in which one engages regularly : OCCUPATION > 3. c : the persons engaged in an occupation, business, or industry https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trade https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trade
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  If you take your definition then all jobs are trades, in which case why do you think we have the word trade if it doesn’t add any new meaning, and what do you think a ‘profession‘ is? Have you never heard people make a distinction between tradespeople and professionals? What do you think the words in this article mean? Are they completely new concepts to you? https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-manual/bim14010 https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/business-income-man... > A ‘profession’ historically meant the three learned professions of the Church, Medicine and the Law but today the term goes much wider and normally involves some substantial exercise of intellectual skill.
  - elliekelly 6y ago
    It’s quite unnecessary for you to be so condescending. Of course I’m familiar with other uses of the word. Are you? Why are you so upset by what I’ve said? What is the distinction between a chef trained at a vocational school and a lawyer trained at a law school? Or a programmer trained at Stanford? Chefs produce something tangible, you might say. Lawyers do, too. We draft briefs and contracts and court filings. Or maybe you’ll point out that a chef has learned a skill that takes a certain je ne sais quoi that cant be taught but can only be acquired with deliberate practice? I would say the same of programmers. (And attorneys, for that matter.) Coding is as much an art as it is a science. And I don’t think the document you’ve linked excludes professional trades. Lawyers and doctors and programmers all provide a service: > ‘Trade’ therefore takes its ordinary meaning, which normally involves commercial operations by a trader who provides goods or services to his or her customers in exchange for a reward.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > What is the distinction between a chef trained at a vocational school and a lawyer trained at a law school? One is considered by society to be a 'tradesperson', while the other is considered a 'professional'. Society considers law to not be a 'trade' because it is a 'profession' instead and society sees these as mutually exclusive by definition. I think what you really mean is you don't agree with society's definitions. That's fine - it's an interesting discussion and I didn't express any opinion on it myself. But I don't think you were ever really mistaken about what the original comment meant - you were feigning confusion as a rhetorical device, which is why I think other people down-voted you.
      - elliekelly 6y ago
        Please don’t speak for me. I wasn’t “feigning” anything and I meant exactly what I said.
- unishark 6y ago
  I'd say the defining feature of a trade show is businesses demonstrating their specialized products for members of the profession. The word "show" is also important here. Without that, a meeting of a profession is commonly called a conference.
jeffbee 6y ago
Computer software development has none of the characteristics of a profession, either. There's no licensure, no guild, no liability, and many people practice it without formal training. The software industry would benefit from moving in the direction of being either a "trade" without the manual labor, or toward being a real profession, but it currently occupies a weird middle ground.
- ceilingcorner 6y ago
  TBH I think this is a feature, not a bug. Over-credentializing coding will limit creativity. If you want a better existing paradigm, consider design (as in the broad field of design, which includes graphic, fashion, industrial, etc.)
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    That's fine with me because I favor the trade direction. I tell my mentees to make things in good taste that they're proud to show people, like a cabinet maker.
  - room500 6y ago
    After dealing with many legacy projects from "creative" developers, I don't think standardizing on some basic practices would be a bad thing
    - jquery 6y ago
      That might increase efficiency but I bet it would reduce joy. As someone who joined the industry for the joy aspect, not the efficiency and money aspect, that’s not very appealing to me. Besides, I think standardization is already happening and being rewarded in the form of higher salaries for people who are fluent in modern frameworks and practices.
- 0xffff2 6y ago
  >There's no licensure, no guild, no liability, Those are all things that are near-universally features of working a trade, so what exactly is the difference between a trade and a profession?
kolbe 6y ago
The distinction is purely a classist one. But functionally speaking, going to nursing school (a trade school) and going to medical school (a professional school) are the same concept, but with one side rebranding themselves as to not be associated with the lower class variant of their work. You’re right there is a legitimate distinction, but maybe we should stop. It is 2020 and thinking you’re “better” than other people for relatively arbitrary reasons is passé.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  Yes there's still some funny distinctions being made - like in the UK some apartments are advertised as 'professionals only' and only 'professionals, teachers, and police officers' are allowed to sign and witness some documents I believe for some reason.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Wow. In California it is not lawful to even advertise housing that way, much less actually enforce it.
  - pmyteh 6y ago
    The list of people who can witness passport applications in the UK is quite interesting. It's got all the usual jobs you'd expect (lawyers, doctors, clergy etc.) and then a set of other jobs which are wildly diverse: childminders, for example, accountants, military officers... The common factor turns out to be accountability. If the childminder falsely certifies an application, Ofsted will revoke her registration for dishonesty. A military officer will be cashiered. A teacher sacked and added to the barring list. So even those posts which are not 'professional' have enough consequences for acting falsely that the state relies on them to be honest.

watwut 6y ago

I would not count them as trades, because people typically talk about trades when they talk about work that requires manual or mechanical skills. I never seen anyone talk about medicine as a trade nor mean doctor when they said trade.