4 ms·

If you roll all the 'external costs' into almost anything, it ends up 'subsidized'. I agree meat and dairy are actually subsidized by various farm programs and

If you roll all the 'external costs' into almost anything, it ends up 'subsidized'. I agree meat and dairy are actually subsidized by various farm programs and other factors, but I'm not sure the figures here make sense. For one thing, meat production uses almost 2/3 of agricultural land, either as pasture, or feedstock production. I think if you realistically accounted for habitat loss, etc, you'd arrive at a figure far above what the article claims. On the other hand, you can't really blame the industry entirely for people's poor health, so lumping those costs into a 'subsidy' doesn't make sense. And finally, I am not convinced by veganism. My family and I switched to a "much more vegetarian" diet over a year ago; at least half meals are meat-free, the rest with reduced meat or switched to less environmentally damaging meats (beef->chicken, etc). It's worked well, but I'm reluctant to go even completely vegetarian, because of health concerns, especially for the kids, and certainly not vegan, until there is good proof otherwise.

ablerman 6y ago
Is the China study adequate evidence for you? It was a 20 year study about the link between consuming animal products and chronic illness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study
- jacknews 6y ago
  No, it's a book, 'loosely based' on research dating to the 70's. There's clear evidence that processed meats, too much meat etc (aka not enough greens?) is bad for you. There's also very clear evidence that a vegan diet without supplements is bad for you, and who knows what supplements and micronutrients are really required over the long term, especially for child development?
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  I think it's a good example of "correlation does not equal causation". The specific problem I remember reading about is that diet correlates with geography, and geography correlates with mortality through some parasites being more prevalent in certain areas and maybe other factors. So you can't draw a causative link between diet and mortality through a simple observational study.
- ghthor 6y ago
  From my memory is wasn't just animal products. The cultures that ate very low protein diets showed the same or better health stats as the ones that ate no animal products. My thought on this was that eating way less protein forces the body to conserve what it's got and turn of the cellular less at a lower frequency, thereby reducing the chances of mutation into cancer.
z3rgl1ng 6y ago
A vegetarian diet is healthy and fine. Eat a little more dairy and legumes is all. There are lots of studies about the benefits and safety of a completely vegetarian diet[0]. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Francesco_Sofi/publication/293329136_Vegetarian_vegan_diets_and_multiple_health_outcomes_A_systematic_review_with_meta-analysis_of_observational_studies/links/59404e51a6fdcce572339749/Vegetarian-vegan-diets-and-multiple-health-outcomes-A-systematic-review-with-meta-analysis-of-observational-studies.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Francesco_Sofi/publicat... for example
EForEndeavour 6y ago
> I'm reluctant to go even completely vegetarian, because of health concerns, especially for the kids, and certainly not vegan, until there is good proof otherwise. I don't want to start a flamewar, but am genuinely curious: is it not possible to raise a child on a vegetarian diet? What about vegan? Hasn't nutrition science made this quite feasible for some years now? If so, is the argument against it that it requires more planning, complexity, and probably cost than just going omnivorous?
- telesilla 6y ago
  Vegetarians (such as myself) tend to eat very well and make sure to eat a complete diet. I know several very tall, very healthy vegetarian kids. Plus, half of India also?
  - HighlandSpring 6y ago
    India also has very high incidence of cardiovascular disease. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
    - EForEndeavour 6y ago
      That's a completely specious argument. How do you know vegetarianism itself is causing CV disease to rise? Is it the vegetarianism, or could it be the concomitant increase in "western-style" diets, reduction in physical activity, alcohol, and smoking? Hint: it's the latter. This paper establishes a beneficial association of vegetarian diet with CV risk factors compared to non-vegetarian diets in India: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208768/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208768/ I'd love to see the basis for your argument that India's high and rising CV disease incidence is somehow an argument against vegetarianism.
    - telesilla 6y ago
      I have very, very low cholesterol, likely due to a low carb diet more than anything: not sure that's related to meat eating.
- 6y ago

ablerman 6y ago

Is the China study adequate evidence for you? It was a 20 year study about the link between consuming animal products and chronic illness. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

jacknews 6y ago
No, it's a book, 'loosely based' on research dating to the 70's. There's clear evidence that processed meats, too much meat etc (aka not enough greens?) is bad for you. There's also very clear evidence that a vegan diet without supplements is bad for you, and who knows what supplements and micronutrients are really required over the long term, especially for child development?
0-_-0 6y ago
I think it's a good example of "correlation does not equal causation". The specific problem I remember reading about is that diet correlates with geography, and geography correlates with mortality through some parasites being more prevalent in certain areas and maybe other factors. So you can't draw a causative link between diet and mortality through a simple observational study.
ghthor 6y ago
From my memory is wasn't just animal products. The cultures that ate very low protein diets showed the same or better health stats as the ones that ate no animal products. My thought on this was that eating way less protein forces the body to conserve what it's got and turn of the cellular less at a lower frequency, thereby reducing the chances of mutation into cancer.

z3rgl1ng 6y ago

A vegetarian diet is healthy and fine. Eat a little more dairy and legumes is all. There are lots of studies about the benefits and safety of a completely vegetarian diet[0]. [0] https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Francesco_Sofi/publication/293329136_Vegetarian_vegan_diets_and_multiple_health_outcomes_A_systematic_review_with_meta-analysis_of_observational_studies/links/59404e51a6fdcce572339749/Vegetarian-vegan-diets-and-multiple-health-outcomes-A-systematic-review-with-meta-analysis-of-observational-studies.pdf https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Francesco_Sofi/publicat... for example

EForEndeavour 6y ago

> I'm reluctant to go even completely vegetarian, because of health concerns, especially for the kids, and certainly not vegan, until there is good proof otherwise. I don't want to start a flamewar, but am genuinely curious: is it not possible to raise a child on a vegetarian diet? What about vegan? Hasn't nutrition science made this quite feasible for some years now? If so, is the argument against it that it requires more planning, complexity, and probably cost than just going omnivorous?

telesilla 6y ago
Vegetarians (such as myself) tend to eat very well and make sure to eat a complete diet. I know several very tall, very healthy vegetarian kids. Plus, half of India also?
- HighlandSpring 6y ago
  India also has very high incidence of cardiovascular disease. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
  - EForEndeavour 6y ago
    That's a completely specious argument. How do you know vegetarianism itself is causing CV disease to rise? Is it the vegetarianism, or could it be the concomitant increase in "western-style" diets, reduction in physical activity, alcohol, and smoking? Hint: it's the latter. This paper establishes a beneficial association of vegetarian diet with CV risk factors compared to non-vegetarian diets in India: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208768/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4208768/ I'd love to see the basis for your argument that India's high and rising CV disease incidence is somehow an argument against vegetarianism.
  - telesilla 6y ago
    I have very, very low cholesterol, likely due to a low carb diet more than anything: not sure that's related to meat eating.
6y ago