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I don't see Linux users demanding snaps in large numbers so it seems to me that is some lay that if I create a Linux related project I need to first ask all the

I don't see Linux users demanding snaps in large numbers so it seems to me that is some lay that if I create a Linux related project I need to first ask all the linux users and all the distros for approval and implement and support all of them. I do not remember GNOME or systemd listening to what users want, they had a team with a big ego and implemented their vision. If I would be a billionaire and I want to create my own DE or distro I would never waste time to make sure my stuff gets approval from people that think they know things because they follow steps from a wiki or read some blog post about stuff. I would respect the GPL and if some dude wants to add a feature he can fork it and add it, I would be focused on the goal (the goal would not be to destroy other distros or projects or force my vision on them)

xet7 6y ago
> I don't see Linux users demanding snaps in large numbers For me, Snap is the best package system. When I publish new version of Wekan Snap, it's updated very fast to those 8k servers around the world where someone has installed Wekan. Canonical has paid all that huge bandwidth, server and admin cost to maintain snap build and download servers. For me, publishing Snap version is free. When Snap is updating on some server, there is very short amount of downtime, and then Wekan is up again. Wekan Snap is in strict sandbox, and can not write to directories outside of /var/snap/wekan/common. Compared to Docker, Docker updates much slower and uses much more disk space with all those layers. Compared to Flatpak, Flatpak uses much more disk space.
- simion314 6y ago
  Sorry, what I meant is that people that don't run Ubuntu don't seem interested in having snap by default in their distribution , at least I only see the voices shouting that deb is enough or flatpack is better. So in the end if I were Canonical leader I would say fuck them and now put my few developers on implementing a different store for the other distributions.
  - xet7 6y ago
    Why would Canonical leader use such words like "fuck them" ? That's just a absurd conspiracy theory. For example Wekan Snap is used in very many different distros: https://snapcraft.io/wekan https://snapcraft.io/wekan
- vetinari 6y ago
  > Compared to Flatpak, Flatpak uses much more disk space. Flatpak has content-based deduplication via ostree. Snaps are squashfs images. They both have a concepts of shared common parts, runtimes. They both take about the same space on disk. However ostree has a hardlink farm for it's content store, so if you do not know how it works and how to measure it, you might have an impression that it takes more space. It does not. IN addition, if you have multiple applications, anything they have in common at file-level granularity will get deduplicated.
vetinari 6y ago
> I don't see Linux users demanding snaps in large numbers There is a demand for a way to package and distribute applications independently of distribution and with sandboxing. Hence Flatpak, who are doing it right. > I need to first ask all the linux users and all the distros for approval and implement and support all of them. Did you ever worked with some folks doing system-level work? Adoption by distributions is definitely a concern for them. They don't want to work on something that no one would use and by being mostly independent, they can not cram it into distribution as Canonical is doing. Even Redhat people have to prove worth of their solutions. > I do not remember GNOME or systemd listening to what users want, they had a team with a big ego and implemented their vision. Because you never met them. Both teams do listen to what users want. Just do not mistake what users want with what a few loudmouths want. > If I would be a billionaire and I want to create my own DE or distro I would never waste time to make sure my stuff gets approval from people that think they know things Even if you had your own distro, you would be probably interested in it's adoption, right? It is a bummer to have a distro that nobody would want to use ;). But I understand; it is a different thing to work with people who have an idea what they are doing, vs. listening to bikeshedding. However, this is not a case of snap and Canonical. They are doing the wrong thing, because they have different objectives than the ones publicly communicated, and they know it (they communicate technical hows, but not business whys).
- simion314 6y ago
  Because I am developer and I have experience with different technology and with different kind of users, no I would not try to get the largest number of users. What we need is more science and data, I would not do X because some designer things looks cool or some here developer wants to play with some cool tech. For example a few years ago KDE Plasma had a maintainer in charge with a big ego(yeah, KDE has some people like this not only the other DE), users wanted an option to disable a thing on desktop (the cashew https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/10/kde-kills-desktop-toolbox-icon https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/10/kde-kills-desktop-toolbo...) .We had patches but (similar to GNOME devs) the maintainer ego was too big and it took years for normality to happen. IMO is snap is bad or this feature is really needed it will happen or snap will die, same for tray icons in GNOME they will add them back when the big ego guy that is against it will find something else to focus on(not sure we will ever have UX study and use data for decisions)

xet7 6y ago

> I don't see Linux users demanding snaps in large numbers For me, Snap is the best package system. When I publish new version of Wekan Snap, it's updated very fast to those 8k servers around the world where someone has installed Wekan. Canonical has paid all that huge bandwidth, server and admin cost to maintain snap build and download servers. For me, publishing Snap version is free. When Snap is updating on some server, there is very short amount of downtime, and then Wekan is up again. Wekan Snap is in strict sandbox, and can not write to directories outside of /var/snap/wekan/common. Compared to Docker, Docker updates much slower and uses much more disk space with all those layers. Compared to Flatpak, Flatpak uses much more disk space.

simion314 6y ago
Sorry, what I meant is that people that don't run Ubuntu don't seem interested in having snap by default in their distribution , at least I only see the voices shouting that deb is enough or flatpack is better. So in the end if I were Canonical leader I would say fuck them and now put my few developers on implementing a different store for the other distributions.
- xet7 6y ago
  Why would Canonical leader use such words like "fuck them" ? That's just a absurd conspiracy theory. For example Wekan Snap is used in very many different distros: https://snapcraft.io/wekan https://snapcraft.io/wekan
vetinari 6y ago
> Compared to Flatpak, Flatpak uses much more disk space. Flatpak has content-based deduplication via ostree. Snaps are squashfs images. They both have a concepts of shared common parts, runtimes. They both take about the same space on disk. However ostree has a hardlink farm for it's content store, so if you do not know how it works and how to measure it, you might have an impression that it takes more space. It does not. IN addition, if you have multiple applications, anything they have in common at file-level granularity will get deduplicated.

vetinari 6y ago

> I don't see Linux users demanding snaps in large numbers There is a demand for a way to package and distribute applications independently of distribution and with sandboxing. Hence Flatpak, who are doing it right. > I need to first ask all the linux users and all the distros for approval and implement and support all of them. Did you ever worked with some folks doing system-level work? Adoption by distributions is definitely a concern for them. They don't want to work on something that no one would use and by being mostly independent, they can not cram it into distribution as Canonical is doing. Even Redhat people have to prove worth of their solutions. > I do not remember GNOME or systemd listening to what users want, they had a team with a big ego and implemented their vision. Because you never met them. Both teams do listen to what users want. Just do not mistake what users want with what a few loudmouths want. > If I would be a billionaire and I want to create my own DE or distro I would never waste time to make sure my stuff gets approval from people that think they know things Even if you had your own distro, you would be probably interested in it's adoption, right? It is a bummer to have a distro that nobody would want to use ;). But I understand; it is a different thing to work with people who have an idea what they are doing, vs. listening to bikeshedding. However, this is not a case of snap and Canonical. They are doing the wrong thing, because they have different objectives than the ones publicly communicated, and they know it (they communicate technical hows, but not business whys).

simion314 6y ago
Because I am developer and I have experience with different technology and with different kind of users, no I would not try to get the largest number of users. What we need is more science and data, I would not do X because some designer things looks cool or some here developer wants to play with some cool tech. For example a few years ago KDE Plasma had a maintainer in charge with a big ego(yeah, KDE has some people like this not only the other DE), users wanted an option to disable a thing on desktop (the cashew https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/10/kde-kills-desktop-toolbox-icon https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2019/10/kde-kills-desktop-toolbo...) .We had patches but (similar to GNOME devs) the maintainer ego was too big and it took years for normality to happen. IMO is snap is bad or this feature is really needed it will happen or snap will die, same for tray icons in GNOME they will add them back when the big ego guy that is against it will find something else to focus on(not sure we will ever have UX study and use data for decisions)