4 ms·

Worker Councils seem to have broadly similar but slightly different rights and responsibilities in Germany. They are never mandatory, however employees do have

by arrrg 6y ago

Worker Councils seem to have broadly similar but slightly different rights and responsibilities in Germany. They are never mandatory, however employees do have the right to form one if there are at least five employees who are eligible to vote (18+) and if at least three of those can be elected (>6 months with the company, broadly speaking no one in an important management role). At least three employees have to take the initiative and call for an election and that can often be quite scary, to be honest. Because appalling rhetoric like here from N26 is not uncommon when that happens. Often these employers also try to (even pre-emptively) form their own unofficial employee council (like is the case here), however that has to be seen with a heavy dose of skepticism, since ultimate power of how such unofficial councils function and whether they can exist at all still rests with the employer. Unlike the Worker Councils they are not protected by the law. Worker councils cannot be abolished by the employers, their rights cannot be taken away by the employer. The employer has not control over them. That’s their power. That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council.

klausa 6y ago
>That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council. If there's one good thing that's gonna come out of the idiotic attempts by the N26 management to stop this, I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists. Second step is getting help in actually creating one, and I'm hoping that ver.di (and other unions! IG Metall has been active in this space recently too.) will step up and provide guidance and support for this.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises. I think it's pretty accurate regarding career effect. Worker Council members are generally much more union-involved, which employers obviously don't like too much. On the other hand: as long as you're a member of the worker council, you can essentially not get fired at all (short of being caught stealing or physically attacking people) so it's a stable career in itself, though rather like working for the government: you won't get to the highest heights, but you'll also not have to work too hard or fear for your job in an economic downturn.
  - klausa 6y ago
    >Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises. Among german-native workforce? Probably. Among the huge swaths on immigrants in Berlin's startup scene? Absolutely not.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Not really, one of my previous employers I think they considered many times to have made a big mistake getting into German market, as we had to continuously remind them of German work laws.
sdoering 6y ago
It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially there are protections in place against such things. but being a works council member myself I can assure you that even the best employers can have very subtle ways. Works council members from different companies talk and some stories are outright scary.
- mercer 6y ago
  story time?
- bkor 6y ago
  > It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially there are protections in place against such things. In the company I work for some join the (Dutch) Works Council just to get ahead in their career. They often join until they're promoted. It's a huge international shipping company.
  - sdoering 6y ago
    Wow. Never heard of that in Germany. Seems that in the Netherlands the works council has a different standing.
mschuster91 6y ago
> That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. Active Betriebsrat here. Do it if you have a couple of like minded co-workers. If you need any assistance contact the nearest union - verdi should be the best guess if you're in tech. Best of luck!
carlmr 6y ago
>That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council. At one of my previous employers there was a failed attempt to form a worker council. The 3 employees were all fired after being in the company for many years. Management basically put them under constant surveillance and recorded every tiny slip-up.
- blub 6y ago
  Why did forming the council fail?
  - carlmr 6y ago
    It failed because there was a vote, and a lot of people said they would be a candidate. Nobody explained that you need more than 50% of the vote, so everybody just gave votes to the people they knew, giving each candidate about 10%. Since there was no majority they couldn't form a work council.
pjmlp 6y ago
Yes, I sadly do know of a couple of attempts to sabotage such attempts from friends working at other companies. Evaluation records that don't reflect the actual work, mobbing, surveys where the "majority" states the company is best without one,... There are lawyers specialized in helping management, https://www.kanzlei-hasselbach.de/2016/kuendigung-betriebsrat/09/ https://www.kanzlei-hasselbach.de/2016/kuendigung-betriebsra...
ahgh 6y ago
I am one of the persons who initiated the process to form a works council at my company recently. It was really scary and stressful but totally worth it in the end. I encourage you to talk to unions and other people who have experience with this, as well as to other people within the company who may be interested. Management will most likely be reluctant to hostile in the beginning but if they are not complete morons there are ways to do it without burning bridges and sacrificing your job or career. It takes time so the earlier you get that ball rolling the better. Happy to chat privately: lhj6btl5pmwk1cn@jetable.org
bkor 6y ago
> That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. Are you in Netherlands or in Germany? I'm part of a Dutch Works Council. I completely disagree with the statement that Dutch and German Works Councils are similar. A German Works Council is has loads of rights that a Dutch Works Council does not have. It basically deals with way more things/ If a Works Council is appreciated often depends not so much on the company, it's also depends on whom are represented by the company. The Regarding N26: already a Dutch Works Council can easily take the company to court whereby the company itself has to fund the costs. Meaning, company has to pay the lawyers fees. Similarly, the Works Council can also spend company money on getting advice from e.g. a lawyer. As a German Works Council is usually _way_ more powerful than the Dutch one I find this situation funny. It's the times where we advice the company to be careful with German Works Council (e.g. a change affecting at least Netherlands and Germany), the advice is not taken seriously, an in an update 6 - 12 months later they'll confirm that they underestimated the German Works Council. From what I heard, German Works Council is involved with new vacancies, the hiring process, hiring a German vs anyone else, salary, etc. They can also force the company to fill up a vacancy (e.g. a vacancy due to someone leaving). In the company I work for a Works Council is appreciated; it's not something they do because there's a law requiring it.

by arrrg 6y ago

klausa 6y ago

>That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council. If there's one good thing that's gonna come out of the idiotic attempts by the N26 management to stop this, I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists. Second step is getting help in actually creating one, and I'm hoping that ver.di (and other unions! IG Metall has been active in this space recently too.) will step up and provide guidance and support for this.

luckylion 6y ago
> I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises. I think it's pretty accurate regarding career effect. Worker Council members are generally much more union-involved, which employers obviously don't like too much. On the other hand: as long as you're a member of the worker council, you can essentially not get fired at all (short of being caught stealing or physically attacking people) so it's a stable career in itself, though rather like working for the government: you won't get to the highest heights, but you'll also not have to work too hard or fear for your job in an economic downturn.
- klausa 6y ago
  >Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises. Among german-native workforce? Probably. Among the huge swaths on immigrants in Berlin's startup scene? Absolutely not.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Not really, one of my previous employers I think they considered many times to have made a big mistake getting into German market, as we had to continuously remind them of German work laws.

sdoering 6y ago

It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially there are protections in place against such things. but being a works council member myself I can assure you that even the best employers can have very subtle ways. Works council members from different companies talk and some stories are outright scary.

mercer 6y ago
story time?
bkor 6y ago
> It is painting a target, as you said. at least with many employers. also being part of a works council can massively hinder your career, even if officially there are protections in place against such things. In the company I work for some join the (Dutch) Works Council just to get ahead in their career. They often join until they're promoted. It's a huge international shipping company.
- sdoering 6y ago
  Wow. Never heard of that in Germany. Seems that in the Netherlands the works council has a different standing.

mschuster91 6y ago

> That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. Active Betriebsrat here. Do it if you have a couple of like minded co-workers. If you need any assistance contact the nearest union - verdi should be the best guess if you're in tech. Best of luck!

carlmr 6y ago

>That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council. At one of my previous employers there was a failed attempt to form a worker council. The 3 employees were all fired after being in the company for many years. Management basically put them under constant surveillance and recorded every tiny slip-up.

blub 6y ago
Why did forming the council fail?
- carlmr 6y ago
  It failed because there was a vote, and a lot of people said they would be a candidate. Nobody explained that you need more than 50% of the vote, so everybody just gave votes to the people they knew, giving each candidate about 10%. Since there was no majority they couldn't form a work council.

pjmlp 6y ago

Yes, I sadly do know of a couple of attempts to sabotage such attempts from friends working at other companies. Evaluation records that don't reflect the actual work, mobbing, surveys where the "majority" states the company is best without one,... There are lawyers specialized in helping management, https://www.kanzlei-hasselbach.de/2016/kuendigung-betriebsrat/09/ https://www.kanzlei-hasselbach.de/2016/kuendigung-betriebsra...

ahgh 6y ago

I am one of the persons who initiated the process to form a works council at my company recently. It was really scary and stressful but totally worth it in the end. I encourage you to talk to unions and other people who have experience with this, as well as to other people within the company who may be interested. Management will most likely be reluctant to hostile in the beginning but if they are not complete morons there are ways to do it without burning bridges and sacrificing your job or career. It takes time so the earlier you get that ball rolling the better. Happy to chat privately: lhj6btl5pmwk1cn@jetable.org

bkor 6y ago

> That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. Are you in Netherlands or in Germany? I'm part of a Dutch Works Council. I completely disagree with the statement that Dutch and German Works Councils are similar. A German Works Council is has loads of rights that a Dutch Works Council does not have. It basically deals with way more things/ If a Works Council is appreciated often depends not so much on the company, it's also depends on whom are represented by the company. The Regarding N26: already a Dutch Works Council can easily take the company to court whereby the company itself has to fund the costs. Meaning, company has to pay the lawyers fees. Similarly, the Works Council can also spend company money on getting advice from e.g. a lawyer. As a German Works Council is usually _way_ more powerful than the Dutch one I find this situation funny. It's the times where we advice the company to be careful with German Works Council (e.g. a change affecting at least Netherlands and Germany), the advice is not taken seriously, an in an update 6 - 12 months later they'll confirm that they underestimated the German Works Council. From what I heard, German Works Council is involved with new vacancies, the hiring process, hiring a German vs anyone else, salary, etc. They can also force the company to fill up a vacancy (e.g. a vacancy due to someone leaving). In the company I work for a Works Council is appreciated; it's not something they do because there's a law requiring it.