6 ms·

Regarding the last point, the Netherlands is very different from the US, especially at-will employment states. Once you give an employee a permanent contract, y

by dtech 6y ago

Regarding the last point, the Netherlands is very different from the US, especially at-will employment states. Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Most interestingly compared to US, if you need to lay off people you need to lay of your employees in order of most junior to most senior (seniority in terms of time they have been with the company)

coldtea 6y ago
>Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Americans be like: "Shock! Awe! How would anyone ever hire an employee under such a requirement?!" (Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 - and the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on).
- Semaphor 6y ago
  > the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on Is that not the case in NL? At least here in Germany, the government uses a lot of tricks to make the number smaller (we call it "Schönrechnen", calculating in a way to make a number look better)
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >Is that not the case in NL? A little, but nothing like the US.
    - brnt 6y ago
      That is actually not at all true. Those seeking for more than a year are removed from the unemployment statistic, as well as anyone who's employed for at least one(!) hour a week (this was changed a few years ago). The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans.
      - Semaphor 6y ago
        That sounds more like what I expected ;) > The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans. I think that’s most governments in general, sadly.
- ArgyleSound 6y ago
  > Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 To be fair this is not a very good comparison due to the European focus on job retention schemes vs the American focus on expanded unemployment insurance and stimulus cheques during the pandemic.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    It's a tremendous comparison considering the European scheme worked and the American scheme was woefully inadequate and is causing incredible turmoil for tens of millions of people.
- lumberjack 6y ago
  American salary: .... Dutch salary: .... American job market: .... Dutch or (even EU) job market: .... They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    Very accurate. And even if you're making good money, you're paying significantly higher taxes, will usually not own a house etc. Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.
    - jakobbuis 6y ago
      Citation needed. Most engineers I know in The Netherlands (around 200) have bought their home.
      - moooo99 6y ago
        His claim is simply false, see https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-ra... Even most blue collar workers I know own their house.
    - markus92 6y ago
      Even most blue collar workers I know have bought a house, what are you talking about.
    - WJW 6y ago
      Home ownership in the Netherlands is 69% vs 65% in the USA. Also the taxes actually pay for things like a public health system and police that have enough training to adopt a "talk first" strategy vs the "shoot first" strategy that seems to be so common in the states.
      - 6y ago
- baud147258 6y ago
  Well, in France similar laws exists and the unemployed rate is at 7% (but is likely below the actual rate, as you have to be actively looking for a job to be counted as unemployed)
  - disabled 6y ago
    > Well, in France similar laws exists and the unemployed rate is at 7% (but is likely below the actual rate, as you have to be actively looking for a job to be counted as unemployed) This is effectively how the unemployment rate is counted in the US too: you have to be actively looking for a job (be a jobseeker) to be counted in the unemployment rate. There are millions of people who are no longer jobseekers for whatever reason. Most often it is due to becoming more and more demoralized/demotivated (Americans statistically, adjusted for population, have this problem by far the worst of the entire developed world), having a legal record that makes a person virtually unemployable (we lock up our citizens at a higher rate than anyone else in the world), people having to be full-time caretakers for a family member (due to a lack of proper and adequately funded social insurance), disabled people trying to get benefits for several years—and often failing (Of the developed world, only in South Korea is it harder to claim disability benefits: this really says a lot because the perception around disability in Asia, but especially Southeast Asia is deplorable).
the-dude 6y ago
There is no difference regarding firing wether it is a permanent or temporary contract. In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. Disclaimer : I am Dutch.
- dtech 6y ago
  I don't agree. Contractors are the first to go, followed by temporary employees. It is much easier for companies to let temporary contracts expire than start the actual process to get permission to fire employees.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    You are shifting goalposts. Firing != expiring. If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off.
    - bkor 6y ago
      > If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off. That's not "will" it is "might". You can wait until their contract ends. You can also fire the person if they severely misbehaved (stealing.. though not just 0.03 EUR like someone at Action who took a shopping bag :-p). Note that "fire" is often used in case of involuntary dismissal, so saying that they need to be paid off is weird if you use "fire".
- bkor 6y ago
  > In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. In which circumstances are those? If your temporary contract ends within 26 weeks you'll be selected _before_ anyone with a fulltime contract. This will depend on the way that the company tries to fire someone. https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-ontslag-aanvragen/detail/ontslag-via-uwv/ontslagaanvraag-wegens-bedrijfseconomische-redenen/rekening-houden-met-de-ontslagvolgorde-afspiegelingsbeginsel https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-on...

by dtech 6y ago

coldtea 6y ago

>Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Americans be like: "Shock! Awe! How would anyone ever hire an employee under such a requirement?!" (Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 - and the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on).

Semaphor 6y ago
> the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on Is that not the case in NL? At least here in Germany, the government uses a lot of tricks to make the number smaller (we call it "Schönrechnen", calculating in a way to make a number look better)
- coldtea 6y ago
  >Is that not the case in NL? A little, but nothing like the US.
  - brnt 6y ago
    That is actually not at all true. Those seeking for more than a year are removed from the unemployment statistic, as well as anyone who's employed for at least one(!) hour a week (this was changed a few years ago). The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans.
    - Semaphor 6y ago
      That sounds more like what I expected ;) > The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans. I think that’s most governments in general, sadly.
ArgyleSound 6y ago
> Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 To be fair this is not a very good comparison due to the European focus on job retention schemes vs the American focus on expanded unemployment insurance and stimulus cheques during the pandemic.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  It's a tremendous comparison considering the European scheme worked and the American scheme was woefully inadequate and is causing incredible turmoil for tens of millions of people.
lumberjack 6y ago
American salary: .... Dutch salary: .... American job market: .... Dutch or (even EU) job market: .... They are not comparable. In the Netherlands and Germany it feels like the only employees who make good money are management. Engineers are never going to be rich from working as engineers. The only way to make it is to break into management, and the odds are against you.
- luckylion 6y ago
  Very accurate. And even if you're making good money, you're paying significantly higher taxes, will usually not own a house etc. Might still be worth it for the benefits, but it should be mentioned.
  - jakobbuis 6y ago
    Citation needed. Most engineers I know in The Netherlands (around 200) have bought their home.
    - moooo99 6y ago
      His claim is simply false, see https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-rate-in-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-ra... Even most blue collar workers I know own their house.
  - markus92 6y ago
    Even most blue collar workers I know have bought a house, what are you talking about.
  - WJW 6y ago
    Home ownership in the Netherlands is 69% vs 65% in the USA. Also the taxes actually pay for things like a public health system and police that have enough training to adopt a "talk first" strategy vs the "shoot first" strategy that seems to be so common in the states.
    - 6y ago
baud147258 6y ago
Well, in France similar laws exists and the unemployed rate is at 7% (but is likely below the actual rate, as you have to be actively looking for a job to be counted as unemployed)
- disabled 6y ago
  > Well, in France similar laws exists and the unemployed rate is at 7% (but is likely below the actual rate, as you have to be actively looking for a job to be counted as unemployed) This is effectively how the unemployment rate is counted in the US too: you have to be actively looking for a job (be a jobseeker) to be counted in the unemployment rate. There are millions of people who are no longer jobseekers for whatever reason. Most often it is due to becoming more and more demoralized/demotivated (Americans statistically, adjusted for population, have this problem by far the worst of the entire developed world), having a legal record that makes a person virtually unemployable (we lock up our citizens at a higher rate than anyone else in the world), people having to be full-time caretakers for a family member (due to a lack of proper and adequately funded social insurance), disabled people trying to get benefits for several years—and often failing (Of the developed world, only in South Korea is it harder to claim disability benefits: this really says a lot because the perception around disability in Asia, but especially Southeast Asia is deplorable).

the-dude 6y ago

There is no difference regarding firing wether it is a permanent or temporary contract. In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. Disclaimer : I am Dutch.

dtech 6y ago
I don't agree. Contractors are the first to go, followed by temporary employees. It is much easier for companies to let temporary contracts expire than start the actual process to get permission to fire employees.
- the-dude 6y ago
  You are shifting goalposts. Firing != expiring. If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off.
  - bkor 6y ago
    > If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off. That's not "will" it is "might". You can wait until their contract ends. You can also fire the person if they severely misbehaved (stealing.. though not just 0.03 EUR like someone at Action who took a shopping bag :-p). Note that "fire" is often used in case of involuntary dismissal, so saying that they need to be paid off is weird if you use "fire".
bkor 6y ago
> In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. In which circumstances are those? If your temporary contract ends within 26 weeks you'll be selected _before_ anyone with a fulltime contract. This will depend on the way that the company tries to fire someone. https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-ontslag-aanvragen/detail/ontslag-via-uwv/ontslagaanvraag-wegens-bedrijfseconomische-redenen/rekening-houden-met-de-ontslagvolgorde-afspiegelingsbeginsel https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-on...