9 ms·

At least here in NL the Works Council is mandatory _By law_ if you have more than 50 employees. I suppose the laws in Germany are similar. and I also suppose N

At least here in NL the Works Council is mandatory _By law_ if you have more than 50 employees. I suppose the laws in Germany are similar. and I also suppose N26 has more than 50 employeees ;) A healthy organization should have one, in my opinion. Management being against it is an unhealthy sign. Just so you have some context. a Works Council has the following rights: Right to discuss: they will have a bi-yearly meeting with the employer, who will report to the employees the financial situation of the company Right to give advise: (This is the one startups find scary). When a company wants to do an investment round or any action that has economical or organisational impact, they _must_ ask for advice from the Works Council. The employer _must_ take their advice into account. If he does not, there is a cool-down period of a month before the decisions comes into place. Within that month the employees can take the employer to court in Amsterdam to block the action. This basically means employees have the right to block investment rounds through court. The burden of proof is on the employee that this is not in interest of the company. Right to vote: The WC has the right to vote on certain decisions regarding reduction of working hours or work conditions. Here the onus is turned around compared to the right to advise. The WC makes the decision, and the _employer_ has the right to countersue. This basically means the employees have the right to force the employer to court if they want to do a firing round. The employer's task is to prove in court that the firing round is needed by law.

dtech 6y ago
Regarding the last point, the Netherlands is very different from the US, especially at-will employment states. Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Most interestingly compared to US, if you need to lay off people you need to lay of your employees in order of most junior to most senior (seniority in terms of time they have been with the company)
- coldtea 6y ago
  >Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Americans be like: "Shock! Awe! How would anyone ever hire an employee under such a requirement?!" (Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 - and the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on).
  - Semaphor 6y ago
    > the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on Is that not the case in NL? At least here in Germany, the government uses a lot of tricks to make the number smaller (we call it "Schönrechnen", calculating in a way to make a number look better)
    - coldtea 6y ago
      >Is that not the case in NL? A little, but nothing like the US.
      - brnt 6y ago
        That is actually not at all true. Those seeking for more than a year are removed from the unemployment statistic, as well as anyone who's employed for at least one(!) hour a week (this was changed a few years ago). The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans.
        Semaphor 6y ago
        That sounds more like what I expected ;) > The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans. I think that’s most governments in general, sadly.
  - ArgyleSound 6y ago
    > Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 To be fair this is not a very good comparison due to the European focus on job retention schemes vs the American focus on expanded unemployment insurance and stimulus cheques during the pandemic.
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      It's a tremendous comparison considering the European scheme worked and the American scheme was woefully inadequate and is causing incredible turmoil for tens of millions of people.
- the-dude 6y ago
  There is no difference regarding firing wether it is a permanent or temporary contract. In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. Disclaimer : I am Dutch.
  - dtech 6y ago
    I don't agree. Contractors are the first to go, followed by temporary employees. It is much easier for companies to let temporary contracts expire than start the actual process to get permission to fire employees.
    - the-dude 6y ago
      You are shifting goalposts. Firing != expiring. If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off.
      - bkor 6y ago
        > If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off. That's not "will" it is "might". You can wait until their contract ends. You can also fire the person if they severely misbehaved (stealing.. though not just 0.03 EUR like someone at Action who took a shopping bag :-p). Note that "fire" is often used in case of involuntary dismissal, so saying that they need to be paid off is weird if you use "fire".
  - bkor 6y ago
    > In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. In which circumstances are those? If your temporary contract ends within 26 weeks you'll be selected _before_ anyone with a fulltime contract. This will depend on the way that the company tries to fire someone. https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-ontslag-aanvragen/detail/ontslag-via-uwv/ontslagaanvraag-wegens-bedrijfseconomische-redenen/rekening-houden-met-de-ontslagvolgorde-afspiegelingsbeginsel https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-on...
arrrg 6y ago
Worker Councils seem to have broadly similar but slightly different rights and responsibilities in Germany. They are never mandatory, however employees do have the right to form one if there are at least five employees who are eligible to vote (18+) and if at least three of those can be elected (>6 months with the company, broadly speaking no one in an important management role). At least three employees have to take the initiative and call for an election and that can often be quite scary, to be honest. Because appalling rhetoric like here from N26 is not uncommon when that happens. Often these employers also try to (even pre-emptively) form their own unofficial employee council (like is the case here), however that has to be seen with a heavy dose of skepticism, since ultimate power of how such unofficial councils function and whether they can exist at all still rests with the employer. Unlike the Worker Councils they are not protected by the law. Worker councils cannot be abolished by the employers, their rights cannot be taken away by the employer. The employer has not control over them. That’s their power. That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council.
- klausa 6y ago
  >That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council. If there's one good thing that's gonna come out of the idiotic attempts by the N26 management to stop this, I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists. Second step is getting help in actually creating one, and I'm hoping that ver.di (and other unions! IG Metall has been active in this space recently too.) will step up and provide guidance and support for this.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises. I think it's pretty accurate regarding career effect. Worker Council members are generally much more union-involved, which employers obviously don't like too much. On the other hand: as long as you're a member of the worker council, you can essentially not get fired at all (short of being caught stealing or physically attacking people) so it's a stable career in itself, though rather like working for the government: you won't get to the highest heights, but you'll also not have to work too hard or fear for your job in an economic downturn.
admg 6y ago
That's fascinating. I can see both the positives of it and the downsides. I recently (around two years ago) worked for a startup which grew too quickly and made some really bad hiring decisions which left them with a lot of loud, disgruntled employees - these works council right's would've crippled the company instead of just setting it back a few years. On the other side I've worked for a larger financial services company more than a few years ago which would've really benefited from this sort of setup as the management was pretty callous in regards to when it got rid of employees or changed incentives at last second or diluted them severely.
- ragebol 6y ago
  In short: if you have bad people in your organisation and they can make decisions, that might be bad for the organisation. So hire good people.
  - admg 6y ago
    Very true! A real difficult task for startups when they try to hire too quickly.
trianglem 6y ago
Why do we not have this seeming wonderful system in the United States?
- boruto 6y ago
  Works council is all roses until it isn't. As a manager it's a huge pain to manage out non performing employees. Eventually all the good people leave and you are left with the ones you cannot fire.
  - trianglem 6y ago
    Yes but I’m sure you can internally get the non performers away from the good ones. Either ways, sounds like there is an actual balance of power which I feel like labor in America can use.

dtech 6y ago

Regarding the last point, the Netherlands is very different from the US, especially at-will employment states. Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Most interestingly compared to US, if you need to lay off people you need to lay of your employees in order of most junior to most senior (seniority in terms of time they have been with the company)

coldtea 6y ago
>Once you give an employee a permanent contract, you cannot fire them except for a set of reasons defined by law. Americans be like: "Shock! Awe! How would anyone ever hire an employee under such a requirement?!" (Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 - and the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on).
- Semaphor 6y ago
  > the latter with lots of under-reporting, e.g. people giving up looking for a job, and so on Is that not the case in NL? At least here in Germany, the government uses a lot of tricks to make the number smaller (we call it "Schönrechnen", calculating in a way to make a number look better)
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >Is that not the case in NL? A little, but nothing like the US.
    - brnt 6y ago
      That is actually not at all true. Those seeking for more than a year are removed from the unemployment statistic, as well as anyone who's employed for at least one(!) hour a week (this was changed a few years ago). The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans.
      - Semaphor 6y ago
        That sounds more like what I expected ;) > The Dutch government is at least as skilled as making its people believe things are going well. Its a actually a bit of a rabbit hole, just like it is for Americans. I think that’s most governments in general, sadly.
- ArgyleSound 6y ago
  > Meanwhile Netherlands unemployed rate is ~ 4.3%, and the US one at ~10 To be fair this is not a very good comparison due to the European focus on job retention schemes vs the American focus on expanded unemployment insurance and stimulus cheques during the pandemic.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    It's a tremendous comparison considering the European scheme worked and the American scheme was woefully inadequate and is causing incredible turmoil for tens of millions of people.
the-dude 6y ago
There is no difference regarding firing wether it is a permanent or temporary contract. In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. Disclaimer : I am Dutch.
- dtech 6y ago
  I don't agree. Contractors are the first to go, followed by temporary employees. It is much easier for companies to let temporary contracts expire than start the actual process to get permission to fire employees.
  - the-dude 6y ago
    You are shifting goalposts. Firing != expiring. If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off.
    - bkor 6y ago
      > If you want to fire someone on a temporary contract, you will have to pay him off. That's not "will" it is "might". You can wait until their contract ends. You can also fire the person if they severely misbehaved (stealing.. though not just 0.03 EUR like someone at Action who took a shopping bag :-p). Note that "fire" is often used in case of involuntary dismissal, so saying that they need to be paid off is weird if you use "fire".
- bkor 6y ago
  > In particular circumstances, you have more security with a temporary contract. In which circumstances are those? If your temporary contract ends within 26 weeks you'll be selected _before_ anyone with a fulltime contract. This will depend on the way that the company tries to fire someone. https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-ontslag-aanvragen/detail/ontslag-via-uwv/ontslagaanvraag-wegens-bedrijfseconomische-redenen/rekening-houden-met-de-ontslagvolgorde-afspiegelingsbeginsel https://www.uwv.nl/werkgevers/werkgever-en-ontslag/ik-wil-on...

arrrg 6y ago

Worker Councils seem to have broadly similar but slightly different rights and responsibilities in Germany. They are never mandatory, however employees do have the right to form one if there are at least five employees who are eligible to vote (18+) and if at least three of those can be elected (>6 months with the company, broadly speaking no one in an important management role). At least three employees have to take the initiative and call for an election and that can often be quite scary, to be honest. Because appalling rhetoric like here from N26 is not uncommon when that happens. Often these employers also try to (even pre-emptively) form their own unofficial employee council (like is the case here), however that has to be seen with a heavy dose of skepticism, since ultimate power of how such unofficial councils function and whether they can exist at all still rests with the employer. Unlike the Worker Councils they are not protected by the law. Worker councils cannot be abolished by the employers, their rights cannot be taken away by the employer. The employer has not control over them. That’s their power. That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council.

klausa 6y ago
>That doesn’t really change that I’m currently still too scared to actually form one at the company I work for, even though I would very much like for it to exist. It still feels like painting a target on your back, even though Germany does not have at-will employment and you certainly cannot be fired or blocked or even just so much as reprimanded for wanting a form a Worker Council. If there's one good thing that's gonna come out of the idiotic attempts by the N26 management to stop this, I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists. Second step is getting help in actually creating one, and I'm hoping that ver.di (and other unions! IG Metall has been active in this space recently too.) will step up and provide guidance and support for this.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > I hope it's bringing more awareness to the fact that "Betriebsräte" are even a thing that exists Isn't it common knowledge? 40% of employees work in companies with a worker council, it's pretty much the default for large enterprises. I think it's pretty accurate regarding career effect. Worker Council members are generally much more union-involved, which employers obviously don't like too much. On the other hand: as long as you're a member of the worker council, you can essentially not get fired at all (short of being caught stealing or physically attacking people) so it's a stable career in itself, though rather like working for the government: you won't get to the highest heights, but you'll also not have to work too hard or fear for your job in an economic downturn.

admg 6y ago

That's fascinating. I can see both the positives of it and the downsides. I recently (around two years ago) worked for a startup which grew too quickly and made some really bad hiring decisions which left them with a lot of loud, disgruntled employees - these works council right's would've crippled the company instead of just setting it back a few years. On the other side I've worked for a larger financial services company more than a few years ago which would've really benefited from this sort of setup as the management was pretty callous in regards to when it got rid of employees or changed incentives at last second or diluted them severely.

ragebol 6y ago
In short: if you have bad people in your organisation and they can make decisions, that might be bad for the organisation. So hire good people.
- admg 6y ago
  Very true! A real difficult task for startups when they try to hire too quickly.

trianglem 6y ago

Why do we not have this seeming wonderful system in the United States?

boruto 6y ago
Works council is all roses until it isn't. As a manager it's a huge pain to manage out non performing employees. Eventually all the good people leave and you are left with the ones you cannot fire.
- trianglem 6y ago
  Yes but I’m sure you can internally get the non performers away from the good ones. Either ways, sounds like there is an actual balance of power which I feel like labor in America can use.