5 ms·

There are so many different issues at play here. Firstly, the original 1948 borders existing for less than 6 hours - the time after which Israel was attacked.

by cik 6y ago

There are so many different issues at play here. Firstly, the original 1948 borders existing for less than 6 hours - the time after which Israel was attacked. Secondly, that Palestinian State was actually Jordan (well, Transjordan). Both King Abdullah and King Abudllah II of Jordan are on record as saying they want nothing to do with that border. When Israel launched a counterattack against the Arab armies within its border, it then secured land from the then Transjordan borders. A similar event happened in the war with Syria. Similarly, Israel's learned from its own history. In only one case (1976, Egypt) has peace been achieved by giving back land. This isn't a door Israel is willing to open again, having been burned (and yes, part of the burning) repeatedly.

Udik 6y ago
> There are so many different issues at play here No, there aren't. When someone has appropriated something he doesn't have a legitimate right to, the first, rightful thing to do is to give it back. It doesn't matter to whom, there is no need for agreements, and there's nothing that can be asked in return, because the fault is on the one who has misappropriated that something. Period. It is really that simple, and the reality is that Israel has no intention of giving back anything, otherwise it wouldn't have built cities on it. This, without even going into the fact that you cannot ask for peace as a precondition for repairing the situation that is causing a large part of the conflict.
- cik 6y ago
  Interesting - but I don't think anyone actually believes that. Whether it's right or not, we want to believe it or not, might has always become rite. Is Texas rejoining Mexico? Was Alaska's really Russia's to sell? What about... well all of North America? Should Jordan return to the non-Hashemites? When are all Australians leaving to their Aboriginees? When is Russia returning Siberia? How about Finland to the Nenets? Or the Samy receiving Norway, Sweden, and parts of Russia? This is the problem with going down this path.
  - Udik 6y ago
    > Whether it's right or not, we want to believe it or not, might has always become rite Ah, ok, if might is right then we're fine. Of course you cannot complain if someone else exercises this rule in a more local way: I might explode a bus, then I'm right to do it. I might throw rockets, then I'm right in doing so. I might get into your house and shoot you without being caught, so I'm right. I might think that my nation has the means to exterminate entire populations to establish some "vital space", then I'm right (and this was exactly H's reasoning). Of course since a long time people have concerned themselves with devising rules that reduce as much as possible the occasions for conflict and disagreement. The law is nothing else than a system of rules designed to minimize grievances, starting from the observation that whoever has being wronged tends to seek satisfaction in every possible way, usually exercising violence.
    - cik 6y ago
      Who ever said that was right? I merely said that's the effective standard humanity applies. Murder is always murder, whether it's sanctioned by a people, a government, or an individual.
      - Udik 6y ago
        Sure, and conflict and murder and genocide is also the standard that humanity applies. And also wars to stop all of those, sanctions, international blame, loss of moral standing, these are also standards that humanity applies. So the standard is that Israel will keep doing what it pleases, people will still argue that it is completely wrong and needs to be stopped, and in the end if someone throws a nuclear weapon over the country we'll just shrug our shoulders and say- 'hey, might is right, that's how the world goes'. Is this the world you want?
        cik 6y ago
        This is at best ingenious. For the most part (emphasis most) conflict hasn't been started by Israel. Genocide is literally not something of which it can be accused. Arab citizens of Israel have democratically elected representation in government, social services, and public schools. Arabic is one of the two official languages, and citizens are entitled to 100% of their services in Arabic. Could it be better, absolutely. Many of us are working to change that. But today one can go to Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Netanya, and pretty much all the cities and see Arabs and Jews. We converse, we live together, we call each other cousins. But let's never pretend it's not equal - that's what we're striving towards, together. Now, it can be accused of not being a peace partner. It can be accused of creating negative conditions. It can be accused of murders. But ethnic cleansing is at best untrue, and baiting at worst.

by cik 6y ago

Udik 6y ago

> There are so many different issues at play here No, there aren't. When someone has appropriated something he doesn't have a legitimate right to, the first, rightful thing to do is to give it back. It doesn't matter to whom, there is no need for agreements, and there's nothing that can be asked in return, because the fault is on the one who has misappropriated that something. Period. It is really that simple, and the reality is that Israel has no intention of giving back anything, otherwise it wouldn't have built cities on it. This, without even going into the fact that you cannot ask for peace as a precondition for repairing the situation that is causing a large part of the conflict.

cik 6y ago
Interesting - but I don't think anyone actually believes that. Whether it's right or not, we want to believe it or not, might has always become rite. Is Texas rejoining Mexico? Was Alaska's really Russia's to sell? What about... well all of North America? Should Jordan return to the non-Hashemites? When are all Australians leaving to their Aboriginees? When is Russia returning Siberia? How about Finland to the Nenets? Or the Samy receiving Norway, Sweden, and parts of Russia? This is the problem with going down this path.
- Udik 6y ago
  > Whether it's right or not, we want to believe it or not, might has always become rite Ah, ok, if might is right then we're fine. Of course you cannot complain if someone else exercises this rule in a more local way: I might explode a bus, then I'm right to do it. I might throw rockets, then I'm right in doing so. I might get into your house and shoot you without being caught, so I'm right. I might think that my nation has the means to exterminate entire populations to establish some "vital space", then I'm right (and this was exactly H's reasoning). Of course since a long time people have concerned themselves with devising rules that reduce as much as possible the occasions for conflict and disagreement. The law is nothing else than a system of rules designed to minimize grievances, starting from the observation that whoever has being wronged tends to seek satisfaction in every possible way, usually exercising violence.
  - cik 6y ago
    Who ever said that was right? I merely said that's the effective standard humanity applies. Murder is always murder, whether it's sanctioned by a people, a government, or an individual.
    - Udik 6y ago
      Sure, and conflict and murder and genocide is also the standard that humanity applies. And also wars to stop all of those, sanctions, international blame, loss of moral standing, these are also standards that humanity applies. So the standard is that Israel will keep doing what it pleases, people will still argue that it is completely wrong and needs to be stopped, and in the end if someone throws a nuclear weapon over the country we'll just shrug our shoulders and say- 'hey, might is right, that's how the world goes'. Is this the world you want?
      - cik 6y ago
        This is at best ingenious. For the most part (emphasis most) conflict hasn't been started by Israel. Genocide is literally not something of which it can be accused. Arab citizens of Israel have democratically elected representation in government, social services, and public schools. Arabic is one of the two official languages, and citizens are entitled to 100% of their services in Arabic. Could it be better, absolutely. Many of us are working to change that. But today one can go to Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Netanya, and pretty much all the cities and see Arabs and Jews. We converse, we live together, we call each other cousins. But let's never pretend it's not equal - that's what we're striving towards, together. Now, it can be accused of not being a peace partner. It can be accused of creating negative conditions. It can be accused of murders. But ethnic cleansing is at best untrue, and baiting at worst.