6 ms·

I don't live in the US and I didn't go to college in the US, so my experience is largely irrelevant to the topic. But in my own country (Italy), even though gr

I don't live in the US and I didn't go to college in the US, so my experience is largely irrelevant to the topic. But in my own country (Italy), even though grade inflation is a thing both in high schools and universities, I see something here that is in stark contrast with some statements in the article: italian students definitely study a lot, far more than in the 60s/70s/80s. In those times the university, although useful, was seen "just as a school", and very often students had a part-time job or worked at their parents' small business, learning "to have a real job" and they weren't chasing the best grades all the time, just a degree. On the contrary, nowadays you can meet a lot of students who are fully dedicated to their degrees, and strive for high grades in all classes. The perceived value of university is far higher, and students commit far more to it. It may be more uncommon to fail an exam; but an high score won't be automatically granted.

rscho 6y ago
That's because it used to be that <30% of high-school students would step foot inside a university, _i.e._ just getting a degree meant you were ahead of the pack and well-employable. Nowadays, literally anyone can obtain a degree. You've got to have something more to show if you want to stand out. The "more" part is poorly defined by design, of course. To add even more to this already dismal situation, education fees have gone through the roof to ensure that smart people of low extraction don't get too much leverage against people who are powerful by right of birth. Education has become an industry just like any other. This decadence makes me extremely sad.
- watwut 6y ago
  The education fees in Italy are that high?
  - rscho 6y ago
    Fees are rising directly or indirectly everywhere. In some places (Italy) it's just the beginning, in other places (USA) the situation is drawing to its finality: the complete destruction of the social ladder.
    - watwut 6y ago
      That makes "education fees have gone through the roof" not really true.
      - rscho 6y ago
        Ok, interesting opinion. So compare someone from 30y ago enjoying truly free university attendance with the ability to have a part-time job on the side to a current student attending a low-fee uni that prevents its students from having jobs through presence checks and constant TAs. Still not true? I agree that the situation outside of the US is much better, though. Just saying we're on the wrong path
  - jaclaz 6y ago
    See my post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24157966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24157966
- erfgh 6y ago
  What education fees are you talking about? Everywhere in Europe universities are free with the exception of England.
  - rscho 6y ago
    No. University is not free everywhere in Europe. Fees are relatively low but there is a sustained push to increase them. Additionally, even low fees are enough to deter the poorest since modern universities prevent you from having a real part-time job.
    - jcelerier 6y ago
      if you are actually the poorest the only fees in France for instance are 15€ a year (and you get state scholarship every month) - the criterion currently is your parents making less than 33k€). If not it's 300€ a year for university - it's more but not unachievable either when compared to the situation in the US.
      - rscho 6y ago
        Agreed. You also have to factor in that scholarships are far less widespread in Europe, though. The french left wing is quite strong and I doubt the situation is as good in many countries of the EU. I freely admit that I am not an expert. Just my 2c.
    - phreeza 6y ago
      Germany introduced fees a while ago but then rolled them back.
  - jaclaz 6y ago
    To give you an order of magnitude public University taxes in Italy (it may vary on the specific university and region) are some 160 Euro year fixed + a "contribution" that can be between 0 and up to 3000 Euro per year, they vary on the family income examples: https://www.unifi.it/p10166.html https://www.unifi.it/p10166.html https://www.unifi.it/p11206.html https://www.unifi.it/p11206.html https://www.unifi.it/p11207.html https://www.unifi.it/p11207.html
jaclaz 6y ago
I would add a few considerations (related to Italy), however. 1) there has been a multiplication of faculties/courses, some of which are almost if not entirely "fluff" (when compared to the "classic" universities/courses). 2) the "initial" bar for entering the job market has been progressively raised (on essentially meaningless metrics such as the UNI career/grades), once (think of the 70's and 80's) there was a lot more jobs and very little amount of graduates, so having a degree was almost the same as having the possibility of a job guaranteed, now that there are so many graduates and so little jobs, having a degree is the very basic requirement[1], the degree grading starts to matter. 3) Additionally to the above, since the graduated cannot easily (or quickly enough) find a proper job, they continue studying and stages and masters are added to the curriculum, and age for a first job increases. 4) It is of course not the fault of the students, often good willing and what not but increasingly we have not-so-young people with a (largely unneeded) theorical knowledge that enter the job market too late and either with too many expectations (because they actually studied hard and for years) or with too little ones (because they "survived" on gig works or were underpaid for years). About the level of education, there are however some serious problems IMHO (I perfectly know that I sound like an old grumpy bastard, but actually I am an old, grumpy bastard). In my times there were simple "rules": 1) at the end of elementary school you should be able to make no grammar/spelling error when writing 2) at the end of middle school you should be able to additionally make no grammar/logic error when writing 3) you had all five years in high school to refine on the above two key points 4) when (if) you went to the university grammar, logical construction and more generally properly speaking, reading, understanding and writing in Italian were not a problem anymore. Nowadays it is not so uncommon that people graduated from the university have difficulties in writing without some spelling errors (particularly accents and apostrophes), and in talking with verb conjugations and pronoums. [1] There is also an economical - reversed - incentive. There is in practice very little cost difference for a firm between hiring a graduate from university and someone coming from a high school, even technical ones, so, for roughly the same cost (think of a difference for the firm Euro 100-200 more per month) the firm has all the interest in hiring someone which at least on paper has more knowledge and at least in theory is more mature.

rscho 6y ago

That's because it used to be that <30% of high-school students would step foot inside a university, _i.e._ just getting a degree meant you were ahead of the pack and well-employable. Nowadays, literally anyone can obtain a degree. You've got to have something more to show if you want to stand out. The "more" part is poorly defined by design, of course. To add even more to this already dismal situation, education fees have gone through the roof to ensure that smart people of low extraction don't get too much leverage against people who are powerful by right of birth. Education has become an industry just like any other. This decadence makes me extremely sad.

watwut 6y ago
The education fees in Italy are that high?
- rscho 6y ago
  Fees are rising directly or indirectly everywhere. In some places (Italy) it's just the beginning, in other places (USA) the situation is drawing to its finality: the complete destruction of the social ladder.
  - watwut 6y ago
    That makes "education fees have gone through the roof" not really true.
    - rscho 6y ago
      Ok, interesting opinion. So compare someone from 30y ago enjoying truly free university attendance with the ability to have a part-time job on the side to a current student attending a low-fee uni that prevents its students from having jobs through presence checks and constant TAs. Still not true? I agree that the situation outside of the US is much better, though. Just saying we're on the wrong path
- jaclaz 6y ago
  See my post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24157966 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24157966
erfgh 6y ago
What education fees are you talking about? Everywhere in Europe universities are free with the exception of England.
- rscho 6y ago
  No. University is not free everywhere in Europe. Fees are relatively low but there is a sustained push to increase them. Additionally, even low fees are enough to deter the poorest since modern universities prevent you from having a real part-time job.
  - jcelerier 6y ago
    if you are actually the poorest the only fees in France for instance are 15€ a year (and you get state scholarship every month) - the criterion currently is your parents making less than 33k€). If not it's 300€ a year for university - it's more but not unachievable either when compared to the situation in the US.
    - rscho 6y ago
      Agreed. You also have to factor in that scholarships are far less widespread in Europe, though. The french left wing is quite strong and I doubt the situation is as good in many countries of the EU. I freely admit that I am not an expert. Just my 2c.
  - phreeza 6y ago
    Germany introduced fees a while ago but then rolled them back.
- jaclaz 6y ago
  To give you an order of magnitude public University taxes in Italy (it may vary on the specific university and region) are some 160 Euro year fixed + a "contribution" that can be between 0 and up to 3000 Euro per year, they vary on the family income examples: https://www.unifi.it/p10166.html https://www.unifi.it/p10166.html https://www.unifi.it/p11206.html https://www.unifi.it/p11206.html https://www.unifi.it/p11207.html https://www.unifi.it/p11207.html

jaclaz 6y ago

I would add a few considerations (related to Italy), however. 1) there has been a multiplication of faculties/courses, some of which are almost if not entirely "fluff" (when compared to the "classic" universities/courses). 2) the "initial" bar for entering the job market has been progressively raised (on essentially meaningless metrics such as the UNI career/grades), once (think of the 70's and 80's) there was a lot more jobs and very little amount of graduates, so having a degree was almost the same as having the possibility of a job guaranteed, now that there are so many graduates and so little jobs, having a degree is the very basic requirement[1], the degree grading starts to matter. 3) Additionally to the above, since the graduated cannot easily (or quickly enough) find a proper job, they continue studying and stages and masters are added to the curriculum, and age for a first job increases. 4) It is of course not the fault of the students, often good willing and what not but increasingly we have not-so-young people with a (largely unneeded) theorical knowledge that enter the job market too late and either with too many expectations (because they actually studied hard and for years) or with too little ones (because they "survived" on gig works or were underpaid for years). About the level of education, there are however some serious problems IMHO (I perfectly know that I sound like an old grumpy bastard, but actually I am an old, grumpy bastard). In my times there were simple "rules": 1) at the end of elementary school you should be able to make no grammar/spelling error when writing 2) at the end of middle school you should be able to additionally make no grammar/logic error when writing 3) you had all five years in high school to refine on the above two key points 4) when (if) you went to the university grammar, logical construction and more generally properly speaking, reading, understanding and writing in Italian were not a problem anymore. Nowadays it is not so uncommon that people graduated from the university have difficulties in writing without some spelling errors (particularly accents and apostrophes), and in talking with verb conjugations and pronoums. [1] There is also an economical - reversed - incentive. There is in practice very little cost difference for a firm between hiring a graduate from university and someone coming from a high school, even technical ones, so, for roughly the same cost (think of a difference for the firm Euro 100-200 more per month) the firm has all the interest in hiring someone which at least on paper has more knowledge and at least in theory is more mature.