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Hi all, for what it's worth, I tried to steer clear of politics of this topic to focus solely on its importance to eCommerce (though they are inextricably linke

by 2PMinc 6y ago

Hi all, for what it's worth, I tried to steer clear of politics of this topic to focus solely on its importance to eCommerce (though they are inextricably linked). We will need a robust eCommerce infrastructure in the coming years and that will require servicing areas in the U.S. that will never be profitable to do so for a private company. The topic is politicized quite a bit and I thought that it was important to explain why it has been over the centuries. That shouldn't deter us from its importance to our retail infrastructure. The suggestion is that we tolerate USPS losses so that we can continue to build strong and sustainable commerce businesses. Amazon doesn't exist without the services that USPS provided the company in its formative years.

googthrowaway42 6y ago
Are you saying Amazon would not exist but for USPS providing service to areas in the U.S. that would never be profitable? What percentage of the population lives in these areas? It seems like you're conflating two distinct issues. 1) Providing access to ecommerce to people living in remote/sparsely populated/rural areas. 2) Generally subsidizing delivery costs for ecommerce businesses.
- 2PMinc 6y ago
  Yes, I am saying that the costs for delivery would become unsustainable for many companies if we had to rely on UPS and FedEx alone. Also, yes, USPS is uniquely capable to democratize shipments and last mile delivery to these underserved areas. eCom is still early (~15% of all retail). As it reaches 30 and 40, this will become more relevant. That's all I'm saying. Thanks for listening.
  - googthrowaway42 6y ago
    > Yes, I am saying that the costs for delivery would become unsustainable for many companies if we had to rely on UPS and FedEx alone. I mean you could levy this argument in favor of anything you wanted. Early computers were prohibitively expensive except for very wealthy households. Now you can get 1000x the computing power for a fraction of the cost. You would have been out there making the same argument for having the government build Apple IIs for everyone at cost. You're basically arguing that innovation or having a better run system is fundamentally impossible in the area of logistics and delivery in general and so we need the government to step in.
    - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
      The government funds a lot of services that are not yet profitable. ARPANET back when AT&T was convinced that packet switching would not work and would not be profitable. Space programs. Clean energy research. GPS. Weather. Subsidies for electric vehicles. DARPA funding Boston Dynamics. Medical research through NIH funding.
      - googthrowaway42 6y ago
        All of those were military projects except for the clean energy research and electric vehicle subsidies which I don't think were necessary (and both of which started under the Obama administration). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra#Government_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra#Government_support
        lovehashbrowns 6y ago
        NIH is not military. https://www.pnas.org/content/115/10/2329 https://www.pnas.org/content/115/10/2329 And we can go with your opinion that EV subsidies weren't necessary and take that as fact. Agricultural subsidies. Coal receives subsidies, too. Battery research funded by the DoD (military). Kodak and its ~760 Million dollar loan through the Defense Production Act. At this point, I'm moving away from the original point. I'm now swerving into subsidies and loans. Although they still stand to benefit private companies for endeavors that might not otherwise be profitable, I think there are far better examples. Let's talk about CERN. ️
        googthrowaway42 6y ago
        NIH came from the military. The internet is also not military but came from the military via ARPANET. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institutes_of_Health#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institutes_of_Health#... I'm not saying there isn't a role for government in providing funding for or even management of large ambitious projects but for something like the post office I don't see the value. Even back when it was created, courier services were not some fantastical pie-in-the-sky endeavor like building a massive particle accelerator and research lab. The author of the article has basically said he just wants the tax payer to subsidize ecommerce businesses.
rectang 6y ago
The idea that we can have a reasonable debate over such matters right now is ludicrous. It is not acceptable to dispense with essential voting infrastructure. Full stop.
- briandear 6y ago
  Why can’t we vote in person and for the infirm, they can use the existing absentee process? If a person can take to the streets in protest or shop at a grocery store, certainly a polling place could be de-risked?
  - stouset 6y ago
    The existing absentee process literally depends on the USPS.
  - madhadron 6y ago
    > Why can’t we vote in person Right now? Pandemic. In general? Because in-person voting is desirable only if your goal is voter suppression and people voting party lines only with minimal investigation of the individuals on the ballot.
    - ghthor 6y ago
      Youre high. But seriously, the main reason for in person voting is to avoid fraud. It also protects voter privacy.
twblalock 6y ago
We already have a robust e-commerce infrastructure because of the roads, the airlines, and the multiple private delivery companies like UPS and FedEx and DHL. We also have large e-commerce companies building their own delivery networks. The USPS is not essential to e-commerce. The suggestion that Amazon wouldn't exist without the USPS is ridiculous.

by 2PMinc 6y ago

googthrowaway42 6y ago

Are you saying Amazon would not exist but for USPS providing service to areas in the U.S. that would never be profitable? What percentage of the population lives in these areas? It seems like you're conflating two distinct issues. 1) Providing access to ecommerce to people living in remote/sparsely populated/rural areas. 2) Generally subsidizing delivery costs for ecommerce businesses.

2PMinc 6y ago
Yes, I am saying that the costs for delivery would become unsustainable for many companies if we had to rely on UPS and FedEx alone. Also, yes, USPS is uniquely capable to democratize shipments and last mile delivery to these underserved areas. eCom is still early (~15% of all retail). As it reaches 30 and 40, this will become more relevant. That's all I'm saying. Thanks for listening.
- googthrowaway42 6y ago
  > Yes, I am saying that the costs for delivery would become unsustainable for many companies if we had to rely on UPS and FedEx alone. I mean you could levy this argument in favor of anything you wanted. Early computers were prohibitively expensive except for very wealthy households. Now you can get 1000x the computing power for a fraction of the cost. You would have been out there making the same argument for having the government build Apple IIs for everyone at cost. You're basically arguing that innovation or having a better run system is fundamentally impossible in the area of logistics and delivery in general and so we need the government to step in.
  - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
    The government funds a lot of services that are not yet profitable. ARPANET back when AT&T was convinced that packet switching would not work and would not be profitable. Space programs. Clean energy research. GPS. Weather. Subsidies for electric vehicles. DARPA funding Boston Dynamics. Medical research through NIH funding.
    - googthrowaway42 6y ago
      All of those were military projects except for the clean energy research and electric vehicle subsidies which I don't think were necessary (and both of which started under the Obama administration). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra#Government_support https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra#Government_support
      - lovehashbrowns 6y ago
        NIH is not military. https://www.pnas.org/content/115/10/2329 https://www.pnas.org/content/115/10/2329 And we can go with your opinion that EV subsidies weren't necessary and take that as fact. Agricultural subsidies. Coal receives subsidies, too. Battery research funded by the DoD (military). Kodak and its ~760 Million dollar loan through the Defense Production Act. At this point, I'm moving away from the original point. I'm now swerving into subsidies and loans. Although they still stand to benefit private companies for endeavors that might not otherwise be profitable, I think there are far better examples. Let's talk about CERN. ️
        googthrowaway42 6y ago
        NIH came from the military. The internet is also not military but came from the military via ARPANET. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institutes_of_Health#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institutes_of_Health#... I'm not saying there isn't a role for government in providing funding for or even management of large ambitious projects but for something like the post office I don't see the value. Even back when it was created, courier services were not some fantastical pie-in-the-sky endeavor like building a massive particle accelerator and research lab. The author of the article has basically said he just wants the tax payer to subsidize ecommerce businesses.

rectang 6y ago

The idea that we can have a reasonable debate over such matters right now is ludicrous. It is not acceptable to dispense with essential voting infrastructure. Full stop.

briandear 6y ago
Why can’t we vote in person and for the infirm, they can use the existing absentee process? If a person can take to the streets in protest or shop at a grocery store, certainly a polling place could be de-risked?
- stouset 6y ago
  The existing absentee process literally depends on the USPS.
- madhadron 6y ago
  > Why can’t we vote in person Right now? Pandemic. In general? Because in-person voting is desirable only if your goal is voter suppression and people voting party lines only with minimal investigation of the individuals on the ballot.
  - ghthor 6y ago
    Youre high. But seriously, the main reason for in person voting is to avoid fraud. It also protects voter privacy.

twblalock 6y ago

We already have a robust e-commerce infrastructure because of the roads, the airlines, and the multiple private delivery companies like UPS and FedEx and DHL. We also have large e-commerce companies building their own delivery networks. The USPS is not essential to e-commerce. The suggestion that Amazon wouldn't exist without the USPS is ridiculous.