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I don't find it particularly interesting to argue over whether Google and/or Apple or Goople are monopolies/duopolies. I think however it is obvious that somet

I don't find it particularly interesting to argue over whether Google and/or Apple or Goople are monopolies/duopolies. I think however it is obvious that something has seriously pathologically gone wrong in the mobile software market and these two companies are behind it. I also don't think that appeals to "is that legal" are all that satisfying -- (Apple's free speech lets them silence whoever they wish, of course) -- but does that seem right to you? For problems like these I tend to start at the end and work backwards. What would we want an ideal ecosystem to look like? And working backwards, what policies, laws, and cultural rules were made in order to get there? What products were built, and/or sold, in order to build that outcome? Then we do those things. I watch these conversations again and again devolve into whether these companies are monopolies, but I think that discussion is beside the point. Is it right?. Why do I only have 2 choices? Why do I get to choose only between Global Hoover or Comical Evil? And why if I choose one of them, do I give up all choices that follow? Solving problems like these relies on establishing a common ground about what we want to see, and agreeing that what we see isn't that. So -- what do we see wrong now, and what would we fix?

lotsofpulp 6y ago
> Why do I only have 2 choices? There’s an extremely high barrier to entry and people don’t have time to learn different operating systems.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  The barrier to entry is not high. There used to be many more options for phone OS.
  - eli 6y ago
    I doubt developers miss the days of having to make a dozen different builds just to get a single J2ME app working on major phones. Forget about cross platform.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      We don't have to miss them, because we live them every single day on Android.
  - harshitaneja 6y ago
    When phones were much more limited in their functionality and user expectations were nowhere near as high as they are today. Complexity of phones since 2007 has skyrocketed. Can a small team create a phone OS and the ecosystem users have grown accustomed to today?
    - swiley 6y ago
      GNU/Linux has a larger and much more healthy app ecosystem than either of the popular mobile OSes. And before you say a desktop DE is unusable on a handheld I’d urge you to actually try it. I’ve owned multiple handhelds running GNU/Linux with either the DE I used on my laptop (fvwm at the time) or lxde and they’re more comfortable than mobile GUIs. (I’m particular: there are far fewer mobile dialogs and touch controls popping over eachother right before you tap them.)
      - harshitaneja 6y ago
        I have been a linux user since early teenage. So I don't need any nudge for that. But on phones, I prefer a great screen, good camera and everything else the mainstream offers. I have a proper camera and good laptops with display and everything but nothing beats the convenience of a good phone for someone who is a nomad(well before covid-19). If linux handhelds work for you, power to you. But I have never found any in the last five years at least that I wanted to use as a daily driver. Would be interested in recommendations though.
  - GhostVII 6y ago
    The barrier to entry is very high because for your OS to be able to compete, it has to support a similar app ecosystem. Getting most major app developers on board with supporting a new OS is pretty much impossible, especially given how many of them rely on Android or iOS specific software. I don't think this is unique to mobile either - pretty much everyone uses Windows or Mac because those OS's support the software that they want to use (although with everything moving to the web this is going away to some degree). The main difference with mobile is that the expectation (or requirement, with Apple) is that you will install software through the app store rather than just downloading it from the internet like on desktop.
  - numpad0 6y ago
    Microsoft Surface Duo is now taking pre-orders and it runs Android
- cordite 6y ago
  Used to have windows phone as a choice, but never ever did google cooperate in getting something as major as YouTube on that platform. (Yet Roku and more do.)
  - worewood 6y ago
    I left Windows Phone several years ago due to lack of apps. Recently I found the old phone in my home and played with it a bit. WP UI was awesome, I miss it. It was so clean, so easy to use, so beautiful. But the lack of apps really killed it.
    - throwaway324343 6y ago
      What was it 5 years that Google denied any perceptible lag on their platform before coming out with Project Butter. Windows Phone was the only other mobile OS as responsive and snappy as iOS.
    - RonanTheGrey 6y ago
      I absolutely loved my Windows Phones and was gutted when they killed the product.
  - sebazzz 6y ago
    Actually they even blocked it. Microsoft had a YouTube app in the store but Google blocked it [0] [0]: https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-neuters-youtube-windows-phone-app/ https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-neuters-youtube-windows-...
- swiley 6y ago
  Everyone had to learn these mobile OSes which are extremely unintuitive. The barrier is caused by a lack of available software (something html5 has largely solved outside of games/Snapchat/apples anti competitive behavior with chat etc.)
sergeykish 6y ago
Microsoft is good these days. Was it because they were not right? Some people established a common ground? Maybe regulations? No, its business was cannibalized by open source - OS by Linux, browser by Mozilla, native software by web applications, shrinking server installations, outflow of developers. And now they are good. Apple closed this route with proprietary hardware and walled garden. --- Was duopoly any different on desktop? - Apple OS X, Microsoft Windows, custom Windows builds, Linux, BSD, etc - Apple iOS, Google Android, custom Android builds, postmarketOS, Ubuntu Touch, etc You can't run Apple OS on generic desktop. Hardware support varies if it is not Windows - good on Linux, worse on BSD, but Plan 9? Haiku OS? Software support is number 1 reason people stick to Windows. Linux and BSD has essentials covered - editors, browser, office. No modern browser on Plan 9, some run it on remote host, some live without it. Microsoft (at its height) pushing OEMs, proprietary API, changing storage formats. Apple pushing proprietary hardware, API, closing ecosystem. If you play by their rules you support their decisions. The only thing that matters is voting with your feet. There is alternative today - PinePhone and Librem 5 has open source drivers (support as long as you wish) [1], LineageOS, F-Droid, postmarketOS, Ubuntu Touch. It is not as polished but you can't have both (at least yet). [1] https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices
Sir_Substance 6y ago
>I also don't think that appeals to "is that legal" are all that satisfying I've always used the rule of thumb that if the best thing someone can say about their behavior or decisions is that they aren't illegal, that person is probably the arsehole in the situation.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

> Why do I only have 2 choices? There’s an extremely high barrier to entry and people don’t have time to learn different operating systems.

nitrogen 6y ago
The barrier to entry is not high. There used to be many more options for phone OS.
- eli 6y ago
  I doubt developers miss the days of having to make a dozen different builds just to get a single J2ME app working on major phones. Forget about cross platform.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    We don't have to miss them, because we live them every single day on Android.
- harshitaneja 6y ago
  When phones were much more limited in their functionality and user expectations were nowhere near as high as they are today. Complexity of phones since 2007 has skyrocketed. Can a small team create a phone OS and the ecosystem users have grown accustomed to today?
  - swiley 6y ago
    GNU/Linux has a larger and much more healthy app ecosystem than either of the popular mobile OSes. And before you say a desktop DE is unusable on a handheld I’d urge you to actually try it. I’ve owned multiple handhelds running GNU/Linux with either the DE I used on my laptop (fvwm at the time) or lxde and they’re more comfortable than mobile GUIs. (I’m particular: there are far fewer mobile dialogs and touch controls popping over eachother right before you tap them.)
    - harshitaneja 6y ago
      I have been a linux user since early teenage. So I don't need any nudge for that. But on phones, I prefer a great screen, good camera and everything else the mainstream offers. I have a proper camera and good laptops with display and everything but nothing beats the convenience of a good phone for someone who is a nomad(well before covid-19). If linux handhelds work for you, power to you. But I have never found any in the last five years at least that I wanted to use as a daily driver. Would be interested in recommendations though.
- GhostVII 6y ago
  The barrier to entry is very high because for your OS to be able to compete, it has to support a similar app ecosystem. Getting most major app developers on board with supporting a new OS is pretty much impossible, especially given how many of them rely on Android or iOS specific software. I don't think this is unique to mobile either - pretty much everyone uses Windows or Mac because those OS's support the software that they want to use (although with everything moving to the web this is going away to some degree). The main difference with mobile is that the expectation (or requirement, with Apple) is that you will install software through the app store rather than just downloading it from the internet like on desktop.
- numpad0 6y ago
  Microsoft Surface Duo is now taking pre-orders and it runs Android
cordite 6y ago
Used to have windows phone as a choice, but never ever did google cooperate in getting something as major as YouTube on that platform. (Yet Roku and more do.)
- worewood 6y ago
  I left Windows Phone several years ago due to lack of apps. Recently I found the old phone in my home and played with it a bit. WP UI was awesome, I miss it. It was so clean, so easy to use, so beautiful. But the lack of apps really killed it.
  - throwaway324343 6y ago
    What was it 5 years that Google denied any perceptible lag on their platform before coming out with Project Butter. Windows Phone was the only other mobile OS as responsive and snappy as iOS.
  - RonanTheGrey 6y ago
    I absolutely loved my Windows Phones and was gutted when they killed the product.
- sebazzz 6y ago
  Actually they even blocked it. Microsoft had a YouTube app in the store but Google blocked it [0] [0]: https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-neuters-youtube-windows-phone-app/ https://www.cnet.com/news/microsoft-neuters-youtube-windows-...
swiley 6y ago
Everyone had to learn these mobile OSes which are extremely unintuitive. The barrier is caused by a lack of available software (something html5 has largely solved outside of games/Snapchat/apples anti competitive behavior with chat etc.)

sergeykish 6y ago

Microsoft is good these days. Was it because they were not right? Some people established a common ground? Maybe regulations? No, its business was cannibalized by open source - OS by Linux, browser by Mozilla, native software by web applications, shrinking server installations, outflow of developers. And now they are good. Apple closed this route with proprietary hardware and walled garden. --- Was duopoly any different on desktop? - Apple OS X, Microsoft Windows, custom Windows builds, Linux, BSD, etc - Apple iOS, Google Android, custom Android builds, postmarketOS, Ubuntu Touch, etc You can't run Apple OS on generic desktop. Hardware support varies if it is not Windows - good on Linux, worse on BSD, but Plan 9? Haiku OS? Software support is number 1 reason people stick to Windows. Linux and BSD has essentials covered - editors, browser, office. No modern browser on Plan 9, some run it on remote host, some live without it. Microsoft (at its height) pushing OEMs, proprietary API, changing storage formats. Apple pushing proprietary hardware, API, closing ecosystem. If you play by their rules you support their decisions. The only thing that matters is voting with your feet. There is alternative today - PinePhone and Librem 5 has open source drivers (support as long as you wish) [1], LineageOS, F-Droid, postmarketOS, Ubuntu Touch. It is not as polished but you can't have both (at least yet). [1] https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices

Sir_Substance 6y ago

>I also don't think that appeals to "is that legal" are all that satisfying I've always used the rule of thumb that if the best thing someone can say about their behavior or decisions is that they aren't illegal, that person is probably the arsehole in the situation.