6 ms·

All true. We create a glut of specialized people while the market has been shrinking. Universities aren't hiring. One solution is trying to transition people i

by robg 16y ago

All true. We create a glut of specialized people while the market has been shrinking. Universities aren't hiring. One solution is trying to transition people into applied biology - i.e. medicine. We could always use more doctors. What's crazy is you could have a Ph.D. in biological sciences yet need to spend another few hundred grand to get trained as a doctor. A general care practitioner needn't spend seven years to get trained.

jinushaun 16y ago
That's my problem with academia and university culture. They don't show how their degree can translate to real jobs. So they graduate only to find out they're only qualified to work in universities as a researcher! For example, in biology you only have two options outside of research: law or medicine.
- gilesc 16y ago
  To be fair, there are also private research foundations and private sector companies -- i.e., drug or medical device companies that also hire biologists. You can also pivot somewhat easily into public health and work for e.g., the Department of Health. And if all else fails, teach high school or lower biology.
  - jerf 16y ago
    "And if all else fails, teach high school or lower biology." With yet more years in education to get your teacher certificate, while your student debt accrues interest and grows, and which you will have to pay down in a career whose income potential has quite likely already peaked and is quite likely headed down over the next 20 years while you are competing for salary against people who don't need to pay down anywhere near as much debt and with additional qualifications that the schools don't care about at all.
    - gilesc 16y ago
      In the US, PhD students in biology are paid tuition plus salary. So assuming his undergraduate student loans were subsidized, a PhD who decided to teach high school would not be in a much different financial position than a recently graduated Science B.Ed. Not to mention that there are magnet high schools that do very much like the perceived prestige of having PhD level instructors. Your typical public high school wouldn't care, of course.
      - jtbigwoo 16y ago
        Not to mention that there are magnet high schools that do very much like the perceived prestige of having PhD level instructors. Your typical public high school wouldn't care, of course. That's not true everywhere. Where I live, there's nearly unlimited public school choice and school districts must reimburse each other at a state-mandated rate for transferred students. Especially in poorer districts, this rate is generally higher than the per-student funding the schools receive for in-district students. (I've heard it's up to $1500/year more.) Individual schools that can recruit students by offering specialized programs (languages, music, science, etc.) can increase their funding quite a bit.
    - apl 16y ago
      This simply shows that the US university system is horribly broken with regard to finances and debt. Wouldn't happen in the EU, for instance.
      - yummyfajitas 16y ago
        Not really, it simply shows that in the EU, your bad education choices harm everyone. In the US, the only person they harm is you.
        shadowfox 16y ago
        This probably needs explanation
- adrianN 16y ago
  I feel that it's not the primary purpose of a university to train the students for some job.
  - maxharris 16y ago
    That's a perfectly reasonable position to hold, but it might be inconsistent with the idea that a university education should be for everyone. (I don't think it can ever be for everyone.) Many people (if not most) just want a job.
    - adrianN 16y ago
      I think there should be special schools for people who just want a job. Most of what you learn at a university isn't particularly important for anything you do in the industry anyway. At least in CS it's like that, I can't speak for other fields.
      - Paulomus 16y ago
        The problem is that a university degree has more prestige that a technical school. So employers use it as a measure of the ability of the people they are hiring, and then complain that their new hires don't have enough practical skills. So the technical schools become universities and start offering degrees in tourism, IT management, and financial planning.
- bbgm 16y ago
  That's a remarkably blinkered view of the world and I can probably call about about 200 examples where this is incorrect, especially today when biologist could mean someone with expertise in Bayesian analysis.
- civilian 16y ago
  I got a degree in biochemistry and I am now doing web development! Critical thinking, self-managing a senior research project, miscellaneous business classes, and diving into unknown knowledge areas help me today.
alsocasey 16y ago
I was under the impression that the professional organizations kept a pretty tight grip on the number of medical school students allowed to graduate every year - the reason we could use more doctors is that doctors enjoy the job security that comes with this enforced scarcity. It's certainly not the case that you really need to have both a perfect 4.0 GPA and have gone to the moon to be capable of performing as a doctor (as the application process for med schools would have you believe... after all, Europe manages to train doctors straight out of highschool in 3 years + internships/fellowships/etc. compared to North America's 4+ years + a bachelor's degree).
- apl 16y ago
  > after all, Europe manages to train doctors straight out > of highschool in 3 years + internships/fellowships/etc. > compared to North America's 4+ years + a bachelor's > degree). It's at least six years of med school in Germany, France and the UK, although I can't vouch for any other European states. But I do agree with your basic point: the selectivity isn't due to doctors having to be much more skilled than, say, (real) engineers.
- radu_floricica 16y ago
  Eastern Europe here, Romania more specifically - the standard is 5 years plus internship, more for certain specializations. I never heard of (nor would I trust) 3 year medical schools...
- DocSavage 16y ago
  I think relatively few medical students had a perfect 4.0 GPA in college. Even places like Harvard Med School have entering students averaging 3.8. Not sure how professional organizations can keep a "tight grip" on med school slots when foreign medical school graduates (and osteopathic medical school grads) can take USMLE medical boards. The pass rates for foreign medical grads, including US students who study abroad, are about 15-20% lower than US medical grads. My point is that the choke point for future doctors isn't the number of medical school slots but the USMLE pass rate and possibly the number of residency slots.
infinite8s 16y ago
A Ph.D in most biological sciences would only teach you enough to get through the first year of medical school (although in far more detail than you need for medicine). The last 2 years of medical school are a practical application of your coursework as you work with residents and more senior doctors to diagnose and treat patients. Medical school still follows the old guild model where you do some initial learning and then a long period of apprenticeship before you are allowed to go off on your own. That's why combined PhD/MD programs still take about 7 years - and that's not including residency and fellowships if you decide to actually practice medicine instead of becoming a scientist. disclaimer - not a doctor, but did a biological PhD and have several family members who just completed their MDs.
earl 16y ago
Hence physician assistants. Stanford's program takes 1.5 years post ba. They can do most/all of what doctors and surgeons can do, but they may require a doctor to sign off on what they do; this varies by state. See http://www.princetonreview.com/Careers.aspx?cid=181 http://www.princetonreview.com/Careers.aspx?cid=181 I'd bet that for a good chunk of what a general doctor does -- yup your ear is infected, here's an antibiotic; your wrist sure is broken, let me cast it; it hurts to pee -- uti or std; a full md is overkill. Living in SF, my gf who has had less complicated medical issues than me primarily sees a PA at One Medical Group, who by the way I would recommend. I recently tore ligaments in my ankle and broke my tibia plus fibula; even my orthopaedic surgeon has PAs helping her maximize efficiency.

by robg 16y ago

jinushaun 16y ago

That's my problem with academia and university culture. They don't show how their degree can translate to real jobs. So they graduate only to find out they're only qualified to work in universities as a researcher! For example, in biology you only have two options outside of research: law or medicine.

gilesc 16y ago
To be fair, there are also private research foundations and private sector companies -- i.e., drug or medical device companies that also hire biologists. You can also pivot somewhat easily into public health and work for e.g., the Department of Health. And if all else fails, teach high school or lower biology.
- jerf 16y ago
  "And if all else fails, teach high school or lower biology." With yet more years in education to get your teacher certificate, while your student debt accrues interest and grows, and which you will have to pay down in a career whose income potential has quite likely already peaked and is quite likely headed down over the next 20 years while you are competing for salary against people who don't need to pay down anywhere near as much debt and with additional qualifications that the schools don't care about at all.
  - gilesc 16y ago
    In the US, PhD students in biology are paid tuition plus salary. So assuming his undergraduate student loans were subsidized, a PhD who decided to teach high school would not be in a much different financial position than a recently graduated Science B.Ed. Not to mention that there are magnet high schools that do very much like the perceived prestige of having PhD level instructors. Your typical public high school wouldn't care, of course.
    - jtbigwoo 16y ago
      Not to mention that there are magnet high schools that do very much like the perceived prestige of having PhD level instructors. Your typical public high school wouldn't care, of course. That's not true everywhere. Where I live, there's nearly unlimited public school choice and school districts must reimburse each other at a state-mandated rate for transferred students. Especially in poorer districts, this rate is generally higher than the per-student funding the schools receive for in-district students. (I've heard it's up to $1500/year more.) Individual schools that can recruit students by offering specialized programs (languages, music, science, etc.) can increase their funding quite a bit.
  - apl 16y ago
    This simply shows that the US university system is horribly broken with regard to finances and debt. Wouldn't happen in the EU, for instance.
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      Not really, it simply shows that in the EU, your bad education choices harm everyone. In the US, the only person they harm is you.
      - shadowfox 16y ago
        This probably needs explanation
adrianN 16y ago
I feel that it's not the primary purpose of a university to train the students for some job.
- maxharris 16y ago
  That's a perfectly reasonable position to hold, but it might be inconsistent with the idea that a university education should be for everyone. (I don't think it can ever be for everyone.) Many people (if not most) just want a job.
  - adrianN 16y ago
    I think there should be special schools for people who just want a job. Most of what you learn at a university isn't particularly important for anything you do in the industry anyway. At least in CS it's like that, I can't speak for other fields.
    - Paulomus 16y ago
      The problem is that a university degree has more prestige that a technical school. So employers use it as a measure of the ability of the people they are hiring, and then complain that their new hires don't have enough practical skills. So the technical schools become universities and start offering degrees in tourism, IT management, and financial planning.
bbgm 16y ago
That's a remarkably blinkered view of the world and I can probably call about about 200 examples where this is incorrect, especially today when biologist could mean someone with expertise in Bayesian analysis.
civilian 16y ago
I got a degree in biochemistry and I am now doing web development! Critical thinking, self-managing a senior research project, miscellaneous business classes, and diving into unknown knowledge areas help me today.

alsocasey 16y ago

I was under the impression that the professional organizations kept a pretty tight grip on the number of medical school students allowed to graduate every year - the reason we could use more doctors is that doctors enjoy the job security that comes with this enforced scarcity. It's certainly not the case that you really need to have both a perfect 4.0 GPA and have gone to the moon to be capable of performing as a doctor (as the application process for med schools would have you believe... after all, Europe manages to train doctors straight out of highschool in 3 years + internships/fellowships/etc. compared to North America's 4+ years + a bachelor's degree).

apl 16y ago
> after all, Europe manages to train doctors straight out > of highschool in 3 years + internships/fellowships/etc. > compared to North America's 4+ years + a bachelor's > degree). It's at least six years of med school in Germany, France and the UK, although I can't vouch for any other European states. But I do agree with your basic point: the selectivity isn't due to doctors having to be much more skilled than, say, (real) engineers.
radu_floricica 16y ago
Eastern Europe here, Romania more specifically - the standard is 5 years plus internship, more for certain specializations. I never heard of (nor would I trust) 3 year medical schools...
DocSavage 16y ago
I think relatively few medical students had a perfect 4.0 GPA in college. Even places like Harvard Med School have entering students averaging 3.8. Not sure how professional organizations can keep a "tight grip" on med school slots when foreign medical school graduates (and osteopathic medical school grads) can take USMLE medical boards. The pass rates for foreign medical grads, including US students who study abroad, are about 15-20% lower than US medical grads. My point is that the choke point for future doctors isn't the number of medical school slots but the USMLE pass rate and possibly the number of residency slots.

infinite8s 16y ago

A Ph.D in most biological sciences would only teach you enough to get through the first year of medical school (although in far more detail than you need for medicine). The last 2 years of medical school are a practical application of your coursework as you work with residents and more senior doctors to diagnose and treat patients. Medical school still follows the old guild model where you do some initial learning and then a long period of apprenticeship before you are allowed to go off on your own. That's why combined PhD/MD programs still take about 7 years - and that's not including residency and fellowships if you decide to actually practice medicine instead of becoming a scientist. disclaimer - not a doctor, but did a biological PhD and have several family members who just completed their MDs.

earl 16y ago

Hence physician assistants. Stanford's program takes 1.5 years post ba. They can do most/all of what doctors and surgeons can do, but they may require a doctor to sign off on what they do; this varies by state. See http://www.princetonreview.com/Careers.aspx?cid=181 http://www.princetonreview.com/Careers.aspx?cid=181 I'd bet that for a good chunk of what a general doctor does -- yup your ear is infected, here's an antibiotic; your wrist sure is broken, let me cast it; it hurts to pee -- uti or std; a full md is overkill. Living in SF, my gf who has had less complicated medical issues than me primarily sees a PA at One Medical Group, who by the way I would recommend. I recently tore ligaments in my ankle and broke my tibia plus fibula; even my orthopaedic surgeon has PAs helping her maximize efficiency.