6 ms·

I think in the last thread a bunch of people were adamant Google wasn't a monopolist because plenty of phones shipped with app stores outside of Play. Seems lik

I think in the last thread a bunch of people were adamant Google wasn't a monopolist because plenty of phones shipped with app stores outside of Play. Seems like Google picks and chooses which of those are okay. It's time to stop lying: Google will absolutely abandon every single rule in the book to ensure they get 30% of Fortnite purchases. It's too lucrative, and Google is too greedy. This has nothing to do with safety or security. It has nothing to do with playing fair and following their terms. It's about the money.

pixl97 6y ago
Apple and Google chiming together: "we're not a monopoly, we're a duopoly and that's perfectly legal"
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  Epic did their homework on the lawsuit, they make it very clear that Apple and Google are each separate monopolies. Because they have exclusive monopolies over app stores on devices that a large portion of people have. But the Play Store and App Store are not competitors: They control different markets. Furthermore, Epic helped highlight a very important point about Android and iOS: They're not actually competitors. For an OEM building a phone, Android is the only option, it has a complete monopoly on mobile OSes with respect to the market of OEMs who might choose it.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    The supermarket on the corner also has a monopoly on what gets on their shelves, and which persons are allowed to get in to buy their stuff.
    - playeren 6y ago
      I don't think your analogy is making any strong points, because there aren't just two supermarkets in the whole world. I can choose from 4 different supermarkets within walking distance, and an additional 3 if you count online supermarkets that deliver to my area. That is not the case when it comes to choosing a mobile OS/app store.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        I bet each one of them has exclusive products not available on the other ones. Having more than one to choose from is still an option.
        playeren 6y ago
        Yes, and I know several of my friends and family who shop in different supermarkets for that reason. How many do you know that have both an iPhone and an Android phone?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Plenty, I am one of them, I am Windows/Android user, and get Apple gear from work. And I also know a few that still use and buy feature phones with their OEM only apps, with "by invitation only SDKs". Which makes the choice bigger than two actually, when one looks at the actual market distribution, something that a judge will care about.
        olsonjeffery 6y ago
        are anecdotes data, now? does fortnite run on feature phones? how many cases have you tried in federal court?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        As many as the wannabe lawyers in HN driving their Apple hate agenda without any legal understanding.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  In technical terms, they're not even a duopoly. Apple has maybe 25% of the market. I say "maybe", because that percentage is decreasing every day. Especially globally. The reality of the situation is that Google is killing Apple in terms of marketshare. And Apple is eating Google in terms of profit. It's a situation that is a bit unprecedented.
guhayun 6y ago
Their customers are not your right For example,you are not forbidden from developing for some random Linux distro They did not build their trust and ecosystem for free,so you should'nt have access to them for free 30% is not unreasonable,costs can be managed,since you are selling a digital product
- kyleee 6y ago
  It's all negotiation on a grand, publicly viewable scale
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  "Their customers are not your right" When did I become Google's property to trade and bargain with? Because it sounds like i didnt buy the phone, Google bought me.
  - garbagetime 6y ago
    You're not an Android user, you're an Android used.
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      It's kind of a shame the Ubuntu phone never really materialized. At one point a while back I put off a much needed upgrade from a nearly dead phone for about 6 months because their phone was supposed to be "any day now". I think the OS is still kicking around and technically not dead yet, but it's really hard to believe that it would be able to break into the OEM side of things at this point. If Microsoft couldn't buy their way in to it I don't see much hope for a group that wouldn't be paying massive amounts of money to handset manufacturers and carriers to support the development & deployment. Though I'd be happy if it were simply possible to flash it onto most Android handsets with full hardware compatibility.
dleslie 6y ago
TBF, this is bleeding fresh new information; I expect most of those arguing in good faith were unaware of this behaviour. But yes, let's stop pretending that Google is an altruistic, benevolent and freedom-loving company. It's not.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  But information wants to be free. And Google wants information to be free too. Especially wants your information. To use, and monetize, and exploit in ways we probably don't know about* *To be fair, Google provides various conveniences and services in exchange for your data, so it doesn't get it completely for free. But there are three general categories of people on this: 1) People who like those conveniences and services and have little idea or thoughts about what pays for it. 2) People who understand this exchange, and make it willingly, eyes open. 3) People who understand this exchange, don't like it, and avoid as many aspects of it as they can. I'll be honest: With every purchase at every web site, every account created, every app installed that asks for this little permission or another, I begin to feel more & more that it doesn't really matter, and fall further into #2.
em-bee 6y ago
did any of these alternatives also ship google play side by side with alternative stores? unless a company has a special deal with google, then it's either google or alternatives but not both. i think the only reason there could be a special deal is that google made some concessions when trying to convince a manufacturer to use android. but that would be an older deal.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  Samsung can generally fight for special concessions because they're A. One of the largest OEMs and B. Actually have the technical capability, monetary resource, and customer loyalty necessary to fork or replace Android. Everyone else has really no choice, and Google gives them the my way or the highway approach.
  - em-bee 6y ago
    even samsung is limited. they have their alternative OS, but they are not allowed to support android apps on that OS because that would violate their android license which they need on other devices. other alternative systems have more freedom than samsung because they are not bound by a license from google.
    - nitrogen 6y ago
      Samsung does have an app store though.
    - nl 6y ago
      Samsung has the Galaxy Appstore on their Android devices. > they have their alternative OS This is Tizen, and it doesn't support Android apps at all. It's a completely different operating system, so not entirely clear why Sumsung would want Android apps on it.
      - distances 6y ago
        > This is Tizen, and it doesn't support Android apps at all. It's a completely different operating system, so not entirely clear why Sumsung would want Android apps on it. It would be impossible to launch a new platform without compatibility for existing apps. There's no way to gain enough developer mindshare to become a serious alternative otherwise. Jolla had Android app compatibility from the launch in addition to the platform native apps, as they knew that's the only option really.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
copp 6y ago
I think we are missing the point here. I might be wrong, but this is my take on this. Google has an agreement with OEM not to install any app store. What google objected was not default app of Fortnite. However, it was a Fornite's game store kind of. Still Google does not object the user to install anything on their phone, though that is getting a bit difficult with Android 11. TLDR; this article SEEMS to talk about Epic Games App Store, rather than Fortnite.
- ocdtrekkie 6y ago
  Basically, if you get Fortnite from the Play Store, you get Fortnite. If you get Fortnite outside the Play Store, you get the Epic Games Launcher, which installs Fortnite. The Epic Games Launcher on Windows was updated into the Epic Games Store, when they added support for third party titles. So yes, Google put a kibosh on an OEM pre-installing a competing store, not just the game.

pixl97 6y ago

Apple and Google chiming together: "we're not a monopoly, we're a duopoly and that's perfectly legal"

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Epic did their homework on the lawsuit, they make it very clear that Apple and Google are each separate monopolies. Because they have exclusive monopolies over app stores on devices that a large portion of people have. But the Play Store and App Store are not competitors: They control different markets. Furthermore, Epic helped highlight a very important point about Android and iOS: They're not actually competitors. For an OEM building a phone, Android is the only option, it has a complete monopoly on mobile OSes with respect to the market of OEMs who might choose it.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  The supermarket on the corner also has a monopoly on what gets on their shelves, and which persons are allowed to get in to buy their stuff.
  - playeren 6y ago
    I don't think your analogy is making any strong points, because there aren't just two supermarkets in the whole world. I can choose from 4 different supermarkets within walking distance, and an additional 3 if you count online supermarkets that deliver to my area. That is not the case when it comes to choosing a mobile OS/app store.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      I bet each one of them has exclusive products not available on the other ones. Having more than one to choose from is still an option.
      - playeren 6y ago
        Yes, and I know several of my friends and family who shop in different supermarkets for that reason. How many do you know that have both an iPhone and an Android phone?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        Plenty, I am one of them, I am Windows/Android user, and get Apple gear from work. And I also know a few that still use and buy feature phones with their OEM only apps, with "by invitation only SDKs". Which makes the choice bigger than two actually, when one looks at the actual market distribution, something that a judge will care about.
        olsonjeffery 6y ago
        are anecdotes data, now? does fortnite run on feature phones? how many cases have you tried in federal court?
        pjmlp 6y ago
        As many as the wannabe lawyers in HN driving their Apple hate agenda without any legal understanding.
bilbo0s 6y ago
In technical terms, they're not even a duopoly. Apple has maybe 25% of the market. I say "maybe", because that percentage is decreasing every day. Especially globally. The reality of the situation is that Google is killing Apple in terms of marketshare. And Apple is eating Google in terms of profit. It's a situation that is a bit unprecedented.

guhayun 6y ago

Their customers are not your right For example,you are not forbidden from developing for some random Linux distro They did not build their trust and ecosystem for free,so you should'nt have access to them for free 30% is not unreasonable,costs can be managed,since you are selling a digital product

kyleee 6y ago
It's all negotiation on a grand, publicly viewable scale
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
"Their customers are not your right" When did I become Google's property to trade and bargain with? Because it sounds like i didnt buy the phone, Google bought me.
- garbagetime 6y ago
  You're not an Android user, you're an Android used.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    It's kind of a shame the Ubuntu phone never really materialized. At one point a while back I put off a much needed upgrade from a nearly dead phone for about 6 months because their phone was supposed to be "any day now". I think the OS is still kicking around and technically not dead yet, but it's really hard to believe that it would be able to break into the OEM side of things at this point. If Microsoft couldn't buy their way in to it I don't see much hope for a group that wouldn't be paying massive amounts of money to handset manufacturers and carriers to support the development & deployment. Though I'd be happy if it were simply possible to flash it onto most Android handsets with full hardware compatibility.

dleslie 6y ago

TBF, this is bleeding fresh new information; I expect most of those arguing in good faith were unaware of this behaviour. But yes, let's stop pretending that Google is an altruistic, benevolent and freedom-loving company. It's not.

ineedasername 6y ago
But information wants to be free. And Google wants information to be free too. Especially wants your information. To use, and monetize, and exploit in ways we probably don't know about* *To be fair, Google provides various conveniences and services in exchange for your data, so it doesn't get it completely for free. But there are three general categories of people on this: 1) People who like those conveniences and services and have little idea or thoughts about what pays for it. 2) People who understand this exchange, and make it willingly, eyes open. 3) People who understand this exchange, don't like it, and avoid as many aspects of it as they can. I'll be honest: With every purchase at every web site, every account created, every app installed that asks for this little permission or another, I begin to feel more & more that it doesn't really matter, and fall further into #2.

em-bee 6y ago

did any of these alternatives also ship google play side by side with alternative stores? unless a company has a special deal with google, then it's either google or alternatives but not both. i think the only reason there could be a special deal is that google made some concessions when trying to convince a manufacturer to use android. but that would be an older deal.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Samsung can generally fight for special concessions because they're A. One of the largest OEMs and B. Actually have the technical capability, monetary resource, and customer loyalty necessary to fork or replace Android. Everyone else has really no choice, and Google gives them the my way or the highway approach.
- em-bee 6y ago
  even samsung is limited. they have their alternative OS, but they are not allowed to support android apps on that OS because that would violate their android license which they need on other devices. other alternative systems have more freedom than samsung because they are not bound by a license from google.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    Samsung does have an app store though.
  - nl 6y ago
    Samsung has the Galaxy Appstore on their Android devices. > they have their alternative OS This is Tizen, and it doesn't support Android apps at all. It's a completely different operating system, so not entirely clear why Sumsung would want Android apps on it.
    - distances 6y ago
      > This is Tizen, and it doesn't support Android apps at all. It's a completely different operating system, so not entirely clear why Sumsung would want Android apps on it. It would be impossible to launch a new platform without compatibility for existing apps. There's no way to gain enough developer mindshare to become a serious alternative otherwise. Jolla had Android app compatibility from the launch in addition to the platform native apps, as they knew that's the only option really.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

copp 6y ago

I think we are missing the point here. I might be wrong, but this is my take on this. Google has an agreement with OEM not to install any app store. What google objected was not default app of Fortnite. However, it was a Fornite's game store kind of. Still Google does not object the user to install anything on their phone, though that is getting a bit difficult with Android 11. TLDR; this article SEEMS to talk about Epic Games App Store, rather than Fortnite.

ocdtrekkie 6y ago
Basically, if you get Fortnite from the Play Store, you get Fortnite. If you get Fortnite outside the Play Store, you get the Epic Games Launcher, which installs Fortnite. The Epic Games Launcher on Windows was updated into the Epic Games Store, when they added support for third party titles. So yes, Google put a kibosh on an OEM pre-installing a competing store, not just the game.