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This scarcity problem was the issue I had with the free college proposals last year. It basically proposed that we should make everyone professionals. But, this

This scarcity problem was the issue I had with the free college proposals last year. It basically proposed that we should make everyone professionals. But, this isn't possible! For every manager, there are 10 workers. "Working class" jobs are necessary. The solution should not be give everyone an escape from hell, it should be make the jobs less hellish. Better wages, better healthcare, more respect and dignity overall. Saying that everybody should not go to college might at first seem elitist, but I think its elitist to presume that college is the only path, where people demonstrate their "merit".

newen 6y ago
That's not how it works in other countries with free college. You have to pass admissions which are very competetive and obviously not everyone gets in.
- biophysboy 6y ago
  It would be cool if we could do something like this - I think it would get a lot of political and financial pushback.
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    This is already the case. NY went tuition free for state schools for middle class income brackets, and admissions is still the same as it was in the past. I'm unsure where you got the idea that subsidized higher education meant that students didn't have to meet academic targets for admission.
    - biophysboy 6y ago
      Is there not pushback on the means by which they determine who gets in? SAT, grades, the income bracket window, etc? If one barrier is removed (tuition), it seems reasonable to get the idea that who gets in will receive even more focus.
rurp 6y ago
> Saying that everybody should not go to college might at first seem elitist, but I think its elitist to presume that college is the only path, where people demonstrate their "merit". This seems self evident to me and I'm always surprised at how much pushback people get for saying that sending 100% of kids to college isn't some especially useful magic bullet. Personally I have a college degree and have been through trade schools in two different industries. The trade schools were much cheaper, much shorter, and vastly more useful to my earning potential than going to college. I loved the college experience but it felt much more like a middle class luxury than an economic necessity.
- biophysboy 6y ago
  Out of curiosity, what were the trade schools/industries?
  - jcims 6y ago
    All of them. There's a huge problem with folks not getting into the trades. HVAC, electrical, framing, millwork, machining, masonry, plumbing, welding, etc etc. I live in a small town. A young local guy started up a small plumbing company about five years ago with contemporary thinking, branding, marketing, etc. He's a super sweet dude that volunteers a lot of time, runs some community facebook groups, etc. Today he's got 50 employees operating out of two locations. Shit's there for the taking.
    - biophysboy 6y ago
      Where is this the most true? I would imaging there is more trade worker scarcity in some places than others.
      - jcims 6y ago
        I don't know if it's bad everywhere but it's bad here in podunk USA. Weeks and weeks of lead time, no call backs, etc...
    - 6y ago
TouchyJoe 6y ago
10 people don't need 1 manager. The company'd be best served if all 11 people worked and managed themselves, like adults.
- tingol 6y ago
  Especially if all of those people have education. Keeping worker count high by omitting their education is very wrong. We are already approaching automation levels where people who are just workers are needed less and less.
- rickdeveloper 6y ago
  Well, I think if large groups of people (companies) are collaborating, some degree of hierarchy should be maintained. While, yes, even if all employees are reasonable adults, it would still benefit their shared objective if there is structure in what they are working on, and when.
- biophysboy 6y ago
  The 10:1 ratio I mentioned was just to illustrate that the free college proposal implicitly assumes but explicitly ignores a "natural hierarchy". I also think workplaces should be more egalitarian than they are now.
IdiocyInAction 6y ago
The problem is that status is positional. Everyone wants to have more of it and it is inherently scarce.

newen 6y ago

That's not how it works in other countries with free college. You have to pass admissions which are very competetive and obviously not everyone gets in.

biophysboy 6y ago
It would be cool if we could do something like this - I think it would get a lot of political and financial pushback.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  This is already the case. NY went tuition free for state schools for middle class income brackets, and admissions is still the same as it was in the past. I'm unsure where you got the idea that subsidized higher education meant that students didn't have to meet academic targets for admission.
  - biophysboy 6y ago
    Is there not pushback on the means by which they determine who gets in? SAT, grades, the income bracket window, etc? If one barrier is removed (tuition), it seems reasonable to get the idea that who gets in will receive even more focus.

rurp 6y ago

> Saying that everybody should not go to college might at first seem elitist, but I think its elitist to presume that college is the only path, where people demonstrate their "merit". This seems self evident to me and I'm always surprised at how much pushback people get for saying that sending 100% of kids to college isn't some especially useful magic bullet. Personally I have a college degree and have been through trade schools in two different industries. The trade schools were much cheaper, much shorter, and vastly more useful to my earning potential than going to college. I loved the college experience but it felt much more like a middle class luxury than an economic necessity.

biophysboy 6y ago
Out of curiosity, what were the trade schools/industries?
- jcims 6y ago
  All of them. There's a huge problem with folks not getting into the trades. HVAC, electrical, framing, millwork, machining, masonry, plumbing, welding, etc etc. I live in a small town. A young local guy started up a small plumbing company about five years ago with contemporary thinking, branding, marketing, etc. He's a super sweet dude that volunteers a lot of time, runs some community facebook groups, etc. Today he's got 50 employees operating out of two locations. Shit's there for the taking.
  - biophysboy 6y ago
    Where is this the most true? I would imaging there is more trade worker scarcity in some places than others.
    - jcims 6y ago
      I don't know if it's bad everywhere but it's bad here in podunk USA. Weeks and weeks of lead time, no call backs, etc...
  - 6y ago

TouchyJoe 6y ago

10 people don't need 1 manager. The company'd be best served if all 11 people worked and managed themselves, like adults.

tingol 6y ago
Especially if all of those people have education. Keeping worker count high by omitting their education is very wrong. We are already approaching automation levels where people who are just workers are needed less and less.
rickdeveloper 6y ago
Well, I think if large groups of people (companies) are collaborating, some degree of hierarchy should be maintained. While, yes, even if all employees are reasonable adults, it would still benefit their shared objective if there is structure in what they are working on, and when.
biophysboy 6y ago
The 10:1 ratio I mentioned was just to illustrate that the free college proposal implicitly assumes but explicitly ignores a "natural hierarchy". I also think workplaces should be more egalitarian than they are now.

IdiocyInAction 6y ago

The problem is that status is positional. Everyone wants to have more of it and it is inherently scarce.