4 ms·

Except when alumni interviewed candidates, there was no such difference, only when university staff did. A pretty convincing smoking gun if you ask me. I am gl

by fmajid 6y ago

Except when alumni interviewed candidates, there was no such difference, only when university staff did. A pretty convincing smoking gun if you ask me. I am glad I studied in France, where admission to elite schools is based purely on objective entrance exams (emphasis on Math). It’s not a perfect system, rich parents can afford tutors and teachers can tutor their kids, but it’s a hella fairer than the system in the US, corrupted by legacy admissions, sports scholarships and racial quotas that purposefully ignore socioeconomic disparity, because it’s easier for the powers-that-be to throw poor rural white kids under the bus than something that might adversely impact their own children.

JamesBarney 6y ago
This is ironic because in the U.S. most people believe the S.A.T. is the most biased portion of the college entrance criteria.
- wittyreference 6y ago
  1) Is that actually "most" people? 2) Is the belief that it's the "most" biased? I've heard the claim that the SAT is biased against lower SES for a while now, but more on the left than the right, and I've never heard "most" biased.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    We need to intervene much much earlier than college admissions if we want to fix that. But it's a really difficult problem because cultures in low SES areas like where I grew up tend to shame and beat the shit out of smart kids, and one culture's "intervention" is another's "unwelcome interference".
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > This is ironic because in the U.S. most people believe the S.A.T. is the most biased portion of the college entrance criteria. I don't see any evidence either that most people believe that or that it's true. I personally find it more likely that high school grades and extracurriculars are probably the most biased portions (grades because a large portion of them usually depends on assignments with loose grading rubrics, which are empirically linked to greater racial and other bias for otherwise similar responses, and extracurriculars because both access and evaluation of them is impacted by cultural factors of both the student, the evaluators, and other members of society.
- babesh 6y ago
  The SAT correlates more to college performance than high school grades. Also the current SAT has been determined to be not racially biased.
  - learc83 6y ago
    > Also the current SAT has been determined to be not racially biased. Determined by who?
    - babesh 6y ago
      UC commissioned a study to see if the SAT was biased. The study found that it was not.
      - learc83 6y ago
        Do you have a link to the this study? All I can find is this 2019 quote from the UC commission investigating this that indicates otherwise: UC Berkeley Chancellor Carol T. Christ, along with the UC system’s chief academic officer, Provost Michael Brown, said Friday that research has convinced them that performance on the tests is so strongly influenced by family income, parents’ education and race...
        barry-cotter 6y ago
        The Chancellor and chief academic officer are politicians not academics. The academics voted to keep the SAT and ACT. > UC should keep SAT and ACT as admission requirements, faculty report says > University of California faculty leaders are recommending the continued use of the controversial SAT and ACT as an admission requirement for now, citing UC data showing the standardized tests may actually help boost enrollment of disadvantaged students, according to a highly anticipated report released Monday https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-03/uc-should-keep-sat-and-act-as-admission-requirements-faculty-report-says https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-03/uc-shoul...
        6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
panda88888 6y ago
I think you got just about everything correct except for just one nitpick —- the alumni actually interviewed the candidates in person, and the university staff did not and assigned personality score purely based on the application.
Krollifi 6y ago
Racial quotas in the admissions process have been ruled unconstitutional a long time ago. https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/supremecourt/rights/print/landmark_regents.html https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/supremecourt/rights/print/land...
enaaem 6y ago
I'm from the Netherlands. I feel like the US admission proces is more like job interview, while in Europe it is more like multi year internship. Secondary education is divided into levels. If you pass all classes on the highest level and pass the final exam, you are guaranteed university admission. If you were a late bloomer and you started at a lower level, there are of course proceses to go up.

by fmajid 6y ago

JamesBarney 6y ago

This is ironic because in the U.S. most people believe the S.A.T. is the most biased portion of the college entrance criteria.

wittyreference 6y ago
1) Is that actually "most" people? 2) Is the belief that it's the "most" biased? I've heard the claim that the SAT is biased against lower SES for a while now, but more on the left than the right, and I've never heard "most" biased.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  We need to intervene much much earlier than college admissions if we want to fix that. But it's a really difficult problem because cultures in low SES areas like where I grew up tend to shame and beat the shit out of smart kids, and one culture's "intervention" is another's "unwelcome interference".
dragonwriter 6y ago
> This is ironic because in the U.S. most people believe the S.A.T. is the most biased portion of the college entrance criteria. I don't see any evidence either that most people believe that or that it's true. I personally find it more likely that high school grades and extracurriculars are probably the most biased portions (grades because a large portion of them usually depends on assignments with loose grading rubrics, which are empirically linked to greater racial and other bias for otherwise similar responses, and extracurriculars because both access and evaluation of them is impacted by cultural factors of both the student, the evaluators, and other members of society.
babesh 6y ago
The SAT correlates more to college performance than high school grades. Also the current SAT has been determined to be not racially biased.
- learc83 6y ago
  > Also the current SAT has been determined to be not racially biased. Determined by who?
  - babesh 6y ago
    UC commissioned a study to see if the SAT was biased. The study found that it was not.
    - learc83 6y ago
      Do you have a link to the this study? All I can find is this 2019 quote from the UC commission investigating this that indicates otherwise: UC Berkeley Chancellor Carol T. Christ, along with the UC system’s chief academic officer, Provost Michael Brown, said Friday that research has convinced them that performance on the tests is so strongly influenced by family income, parents’ education and race...
      - barry-cotter 6y ago
        The Chancellor and chief academic officer are politicians not academics. The academics voted to keep the SAT and ACT. > UC should keep SAT and ACT as admission requirements, faculty report says > University of California faculty leaders are recommending the continued use of the controversial SAT and ACT as an admission requirement for now, citing UC data showing the standardized tests may actually help boost enrollment of disadvantaged students, according to a highly anticipated report released Monday https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-03/uc-should-keep-sat-and-act-as-admission-requirements-faculty-report-says https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-03/uc-shoul...
        6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

panda88888 6y ago

I think you got just about everything correct except for just one nitpick —- the alumni actually interviewed the candidates in person, and the university staff did not and assigned personality score purely based on the application.

Krollifi 6y ago

Racial quotas in the admissions process have been ruled unconstitutional a long time ago. https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/supremecourt/rights/print/landmark_regents.html https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/supremecourt/rights/print/land...

enaaem 6y ago

I'm from the Netherlands. I feel like the US admission proces is more like job interview, while in Europe it is more like multi year internship. Secondary education is divided into levels. If you pass all classes on the highest level and pass the final exam, you are guaranteed university admission. If you were a late bloomer and you started at a lower level, there are of course proceses to go up.