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If you don't like the service or product, don't buy it. There are Android, Sailfish, Postmarket, Mer. It's extremely unethical in my opinion to force some serv

If you don't like the service or product, don't buy it. There are Android, Sailfish, Postmarket, Mer. It's extremely unethical in my opinion to force some service provider to adjust the service to your needs/preferences.

9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
Why on earth is it unethical?
- kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
  It's not. The entire purpose of regulation is to fix bad market practices.
- ernst_klim 6y ago
  You are restricting other people's right to agree on terms they deem fit. It's unethical in my opinion, until an agreement hurt any third party.
kickopotomus 6y ago
I bought my device. I own it outright. It should be up to me, not Apple, what software I would like to run on my device. It is extremely unethical for a company to dictate what software I am allowed to run on hardware that I own. It is even more unethical for that company to then take a portion of my payment away from the developer without allowing another avenue for the transaction to take place. This would not be an issue if Apple allowed users to easily side load apps.
- ernst_klim 6y ago
  > It should be up to me, not Apple, what software I would like to run on my device. Sorry, you are building a strawman here. 1) You have the full right to do whatever you want with your phone. I don't argue with that, it's the truth. 2) Apple need not to help you to do whatever you want with your phone. For some reason you confuse your right to do whatever you want with your phone with Apple's obligation to help you with that. Do reverse engineering, flash custom OS, jailbreak, it's your right, but Apple has no obligation to help you with that. If it's to hard for you to do whatever you want with their device, buy another vendor's device then.
  - growse 6y ago
    > 2) Apple need not to help you to do whatever you want with your phone. > For some reason you confuse your right to do whatever you want with your phone with Apple's obligation to help you with that. At what point along the road from 'not helping' to 'actively hindering' does this become not ok? When a company goes out of their way to prevent you exercising your rights, what do we call that?
    - aw1621107 6y ago
      Honestly curious, since I haven't been following news as closely as I probably should have: has Apple done anything to actively hinder those who wish to jailbreak their devices beyond patching exploits?
true_religion 6y ago
It is the purpose of government to work ensure a healthy market economy. Although, ethics is important, it is far from the only goal. Backwards looking regulation patches places where the reality of a companies actions, lead to a stagnant and poorly competitive arena. It’s well within the governments rights to say a transactional middleman service can only charge a certain fee. What is important to society is the success of the producers, not the rent seeking middleman.
013a 6y ago
These proceedings are not about users having no choice (though, they really don't: Has anyone here except you even heard of "mer"?) They're about developers not having any choice. Developers have to release on iOS. There's no other option, because that's where most users are. Apple has a captive audience, and they're using that captive audience to abuse developers, who have no recourse. The issue with many armchair commentators on HackerNews is that we look at the philosophy of the situation, and not the reality. The philosophy is "its Apple's platform, it's their right to run it however they want." The reality is "a billion people use this thing." The rules change when you get that big; its not about philosophy, its about doing what's best for everyone. To some degree, Apple does have a right to run their platform how they want: Fuck Their Rights.
- ernst_klim 6y ago
  > They're about developers not having any choice. Developers have to release on iOS. There's no other option, because that's where most users are. They do have a choice. You target Apple users and agree upon Apple's terms, or you don't, and publish your app in F-droid/Jolla store, hoping somebody would pay. The reality is that apple has built an infrastructure which allow you to gain profits and deliver to a huge amount of customers. > The reality is "a billion people use this thing. Because Apple put quite a lot of resources to build it. It's their right to operate it as they do. > Fuck Their Rights Sure, but let's start with turning your home into a shelter for homeless people for the sake of the society, Fucking your Right, and then we'll fuck theirs. People are always quick to deprive others of their rights as I see.
  - sabellito 6y ago
    > Sure, but let's start with turning your home into a shelter for homeless people for the sake of the society And here, a perfect example of slippery slope. You are doing exactly what 013a called as "armchair commentators", and not looking at reality. The reality is that there are two OSs for phones, and two stores. This arrangement is detrimental to developers and consumers, and, as it stands, there's no getting out of it without resources that no one, apart from Amazon, has.
xnyan 6y ago
Apple has a long history of using their leverage and power to extract more value from their business relationships when they can.In what way is it unethical to meet Apple on their own terms?

9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago

Why on earth is it unethical?

kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
It's not. The entire purpose of regulation is to fix bad market practices.
ernst_klim 6y ago
You are restricting other people's right to agree on terms they deem fit. It's unethical in my opinion, until an agreement hurt any third party.

kickopotomus 6y ago

I bought my device. I own it outright. It should be up to me, not Apple, what software I would like to run on my device. It is extremely unethical for a company to dictate what software I am allowed to run on hardware that I own. It is even more unethical for that company to then take a portion of my payment away from the developer without allowing another avenue for the transaction to take place. This would not be an issue if Apple allowed users to easily side load apps.

ernst_klim 6y ago
> It should be up to me, not Apple, what software I would like to run on my device. Sorry, you are building a strawman here. 1) You have the full right to do whatever you want with your phone. I don't argue with that, it's the truth. 2) Apple need not to help you to do whatever you want with your phone. For some reason you confuse your right to do whatever you want with your phone with Apple's obligation to help you with that. Do reverse engineering, flash custom OS, jailbreak, it's your right, but Apple has no obligation to help you with that. If it's to hard for you to do whatever you want with their device, buy another vendor's device then.
- growse 6y ago
  > 2) Apple need not to help you to do whatever you want with your phone. > For some reason you confuse your right to do whatever you want with your phone with Apple's obligation to help you with that. At what point along the road from 'not helping' to 'actively hindering' does this become not ok? When a company goes out of their way to prevent you exercising your rights, what do we call that?
  - aw1621107 6y ago
    Honestly curious, since I haven't been following news as closely as I probably should have: has Apple done anything to actively hinder those who wish to jailbreak their devices beyond patching exploits?

true_religion 6y ago

It is the purpose of government to work ensure a healthy market economy. Although, ethics is important, it is far from the only goal. Backwards looking regulation patches places where the reality of a companies actions, lead to a stagnant and poorly competitive arena. It’s well within the governments rights to say a transactional middleman service can only charge a certain fee. What is important to society is the success of the producers, not the rent seeking middleman.

013a 6y ago

These proceedings are not about users having no choice (though, they really don't: Has anyone here except you even heard of "mer"?) They're about developers not having any choice. Developers have to release on iOS. There's no other option, because that's where most users are. Apple has a captive audience, and they're using that captive audience to abuse developers, who have no recourse. The issue with many armchair commentators on HackerNews is that we look at the philosophy of the situation, and not the reality. The philosophy is "its Apple's platform, it's their right to run it however they want." The reality is "a billion people use this thing." The rules change when you get that big; its not about philosophy, its about doing what's best for everyone. To some degree, Apple does have a right to run their platform how they want: Fuck Their Rights.

ernst_klim 6y ago
> They're about developers not having any choice. Developers have to release on iOS. There's no other option, because that's where most users are. They do have a choice. You target Apple users and agree upon Apple's terms, or you don't, and publish your app in F-droid/Jolla store, hoping somebody would pay. The reality is that apple has built an infrastructure which allow you to gain profits and deliver to a huge amount of customers. > The reality is "a billion people use this thing. Because Apple put quite a lot of resources to build it. It's their right to operate it as they do. > Fuck Their Rights Sure, but let's start with turning your home into a shelter for homeless people for the sake of the society, Fucking your Right, and then we'll fuck theirs. People are always quick to deprive others of their rights as I see.
- sabellito 6y ago
  > Sure, but let's start with turning your home into a shelter for homeless people for the sake of the society And here, a perfect example of slippery slope. You are doing exactly what 013a called as "armchair commentators", and not looking at reality. The reality is that there are two OSs for phones, and two stores. This arrangement is detrimental to developers and consumers, and, as it stands, there's no getting out of it without resources that no one, apart from Amazon, has.

xnyan 6y ago

Apple has a long history of using their leverage and power to extract more value from their business relationships when they can.In what way is it unethical to meet Apple on their own terms?