4 ms·

The age-old question of whether we want equal opportunity or equal outcome...

x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
Harrison Bergeron is the logical conclusion to fundamentally equal outcome. Is that a society anyone really wants to live in?
- d33lio 6y ago
  Show me any evidence that this isn't literally what the far left wants? CA is moving to remove hiring anti-discrimination protections, as if nothing could go wrong with that line of reasoning...
  - x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
    The far left wants power, not equality.
    - d33lio 6y ago
      Even as someone who identifies as a liberal, I 100% agree with your sentiment here. Anyone who thinks otherwise is blind to the obvious narrative or too simple to acknowledge basic tenants of human behavior.
  - disposekinetics 6y ago
    My belief is that this is a compromise of convenience rather than want. It appears to be easy to achieve equality by hampering the best, but much harder work to achieve equality by raising the worst off up.
- jgalt212 6y ago
  Not for me. But I don't thinks its' A or B, but some blend and it's always been some blend. House of Commons and House of Lords. Representatives and Senators, Electoral College, etc. I believe the right discussion to have is where do we as society want to be between the two outcomes. Not do we want A, or do we want B.
  - HPsquared 6y ago
    I wouldn't use Congress as an example, as both houses have been elected by popular vote since the seventeenth amendment. Slippery slope in action...
    - jgalt212 6y ago
      I was referring the the balance of power between large states (House) and small states (Senate) as a metaphor for not wholly espousing the binary outcome equality of opportunity or equality of outcome.
- pickledish 6y ago
  Man, I've been frustrated when I see that story recently; it reads like a bad caricature of what a lot of good movements are trying to accomplish. In reality the goal (though not always perfectly executed of course) is always about raising people up, not tearing people down (like the handicaps in the story)
- 5mk 6y ago
  As an aside, I find it interesting how Harrison Bergeron is so commonly misinterpreted as a satire of the left. When one considers Vonnegut's personal beliefs and the strawman portrayal of communism in the story, it really should become clear that it is actually a critique of Cold War/anticommunist hysteria. A satire of anticommunist satire, if you will.
  - Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
    In context, it was written at a time when the ideological and intellectual opposition to communism hadn't been very well-articulated yet, and hadn't become "obvious" to onlookers. It might be a little on-the-nose, but I think it is a sincere takedown of the authleft (and moreso: crab mentality). These views can and do come from within the left - like Orwell, most notably.
- _jal 6y ago
  ...In the same way that cannibalism is the logical conclusion of capitalism. Don't get me wrong - the impulse is there and some people think that way. Just like are absolutely people who would peddle filet of Steve. But amplifying the marginal to discredit the general is fundamentally dishonest, and we won't do that here, right?
  - x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
    I don't see how you draw that path, but maybe you could try explaining it. It seems the story is clearly an extreme form of "equality of outcome," but there's no clear linguistic or conceptual path from capitalism to cannibalism.
jhowell 6y ago
There has never been equal opportunity. This is clear. The reasons why opportunity has not been equal is becoming more clear, regardless which side of the nature versus nurture debate you fall on. Equal outcome should not be the goal (test scores and grades are not the best nor only indicator the likelihood of success). The goal should be equal access.
- kyleee 6y ago
  Do you want equal opportunity for everyone? Is "equal access" a synonym for equal opportunity or do you have something else in mind?
- chrisco255 6y ago
  In that case, we simply need to publish all lectures online free of charge.
  - jhowell 6y ago
    I don't think online lectures is the opportunity that plaintiffs in this case felt they were deprived of. Do you think that "we simply need to publish all lectures online free of charge" is a good answer for the plaintiffs?
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    People don't benefit from Yale from the lectures. They benefit from the brand name and alumni you get to be associated with. Which is because Yale restricts admission to people who have high probability of being influential.
    - chrisco255 6y ago
      So it's really just an exclusive club and not about education and knowledge building at all? Okay, you simply reenforce my point. It's a signalling mechanism for cargo cult employers who would rather simply hire from Yale than do the work of actually assessing people's capabilities. It needs to go the way of the dodo.
- 6y ago
mucholove 6y ago
Is Yale an outcome or an opportunity?
- PeterisP 6y ago
  Equality of outcome would mean that the race/ethnicity/etc proportion of people admitted to Yale would be similar to the appropriate proportion in the general community instead of being wildly different. Equality of opportunity would mean that if two equally qualified persons of different races/ethnicities/etc have the same chance of getting admitted. The big issue is that you can't have both, mostly due to various family and childhood circumstances that mean that different groups have different rates of "getting to X years old with qualifications/skills/preparations Y". For Yale admissions, you can have one, or the other, or a compromise in the middle. You can have a situation that's unfair/unequal according to both criteria, but you can't get both "types of equality" at the same time, as increasing one generally requires to trade off or sacrifice the other.

Harrison Bergeron is the logical conclusion to fundamentally equal outcome. Is that a society anyone really wants to live in?

d33lio 6y ago
Show me any evidence that this isn't literally what the far left wants? CA is moving to remove hiring anti-discrimination protections, as if nothing could go wrong with that line of reasoning...
- x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
  The far left wants power, not equality.
  - d33lio 6y ago
    Even as someone who identifies as a liberal, I 100% agree with your sentiment here. Anyone who thinks otherwise is blind to the obvious narrative or too simple to acknowledge basic tenants of human behavior.
- disposekinetics 6y ago
  My belief is that this is a compromise of convenience rather than want. It appears to be easy to achieve equality by hampering the best, but much harder work to achieve equality by raising the worst off up.
jgalt212 6y ago
Not for me. But I don't thinks its' A or B, but some blend and it's always been some blend. House of Commons and House of Lords. Representatives and Senators, Electoral College, etc. I believe the right discussion to have is where do we as society want to be between the two outcomes. Not do we want A, or do we want B.
- HPsquared 6y ago
  I wouldn't use Congress as an example, as both houses have been elected by popular vote since the seventeenth amendment. Slippery slope in action...
  - jgalt212 6y ago
    I was referring the the balance of power between large states (House) and small states (Senate) as a metaphor for not wholly espousing the binary outcome equality of opportunity or equality of outcome.
pickledish 6y ago
Man, I've been frustrated when I see that story recently; it reads like a bad caricature of what a lot of good movements are trying to accomplish. In reality the goal (though not always perfectly executed of course) is always about raising people up, not tearing people down (like the handicaps in the story)
5mk 6y ago
As an aside, I find it interesting how Harrison Bergeron is so commonly misinterpreted as a satire of the left. When one considers Vonnegut's personal beliefs and the strawman portrayal of communism in the story, it really should become clear that it is actually a critique of Cold War/anticommunist hysteria. A satire of anticommunist satire, if you will.
- Wolfenstein98k 6y ago
  In context, it was written at a time when the ideological and intellectual opposition to communism hadn't been very well-articulated yet, and hadn't become "obvious" to onlookers. It might be a little on-the-nose, but I think it is a sincere takedown of the authleft (and moreso: crab mentality). These views can and do come from within the left - like Orwell, most notably.
_jal 6y ago
...In the same way that cannibalism is the logical conclusion of capitalism. Don't get me wrong - the impulse is there and some people think that way. Just like are absolutely people who would peddle filet of Steve. But amplifying the marginal to discredit the general is fundamentally dishonest, and we won't do that here, right?
- x3n0ph3n3 6y ago
  I don't see how you draw that path, but maybe you could try explaining it. It seems the story is clearly an extreme form of "equality of outcome," but there's no clear linguistic or conceptual path from capitalism to cannibalism.

jhowell 6y ago

There has never been equal opportunity. This is clear. The reasons why opportunity has not been equal is becoming more clear, regardless which side of the nature versus nurture debate you fall on. Equal outcome should not be the goal (test scores and grades are not the best nor only indicator the likelihood of success). The goal should be equal access.

kyleee 6y ago
Do you want equal opportunity for everyone? Is "equal access" a synonym for equal opportunity or do you have something else in mind?
chrisco255 6y ago
In that case, we simply need to publish all lectures online free of charge.
- jhowell 6y ago
  I don't think online lectures is the opportunity that plaintiffs in this case felt they were deprived of. Do you think that "we simply need to publish all lectures online free of charge" is a good answer for the plaintiffs?
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  People don't benefit from Yale from the lectures. They benefit from the brand name and alumni you get to be associated with. Which is because Yale restricts admission to people who have high probability of being influential.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    So it's really just an exclusive club and not about education and knowledge building at all? Okay, you simply reenforce my point. It's a signalling mechanism for cargo cult employers who would rather simply hire from Yale than do the work of actually assessing people's capabilities. It needs to go the way of the dodo.
6y ago

mucholove 6y ago

Is Yale an outcome or an opportunity?

PeterisP 6y ago
Equality of outcome would mean that the race/ethnicity/etc proportion of people admitted to Yale would be similar to the appropriate proportion in the general community instead of being wildly different. Equality of opportunity would mean that if two equally qualified persons of different races/ethnicities/etc have the same chance of getting admitted. The big issue is that you can't have both, mostly due to various family and childhood circumstances that mean that different groups have different rates of "getting to X years old with qualifications/skills/preparations Y". For Yale admissions, you can have one, or the other, or a compromise in the middle. You can have a situation that's unfair/unequal according to both criteria, but you can't get both "types of equality" at the same time, as increasing one generally requires to trade off or sacrifice the other.