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I don't see the problem, Epic explicitly went around the app store's payment process and terms of service. It's within Apple's right to pull Fortnite. They are

I don't see the problem, Epic explicitly went around the app store's payment process and terms of service. It's within Apple's right to pull Fortnite. They are also suing Apple as well. Why should Epic get a “special arrangement” from all other developers? If you don't like the terms, then don't be on the Apple App store, but of course your missing a huge swath of the population thus the 30% fee. Being on the App store is essentially unlimited marketing and exposure for your app. Cost of doing business.

kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
As a consumer, why can't there be an alternative App Store on IoS if I don't like the Apple terms? Apple shouldn't force consumers and developers to provide them with 30%.
- ntsplnkv2 6y ago
  There is - buy the more popular, larger market share Android phone and your problem is solved.
  - RussianCow 6y ago
    And have the same issue with Google Play? They also take a 30% cut.
    - ernst_klim 6y ago
      Install F-droid, or one of the Chinese markets.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      Android can easily sideload applications or use other app stores. It simply isn't a problem there.
    - SyneRyder 6y ago
      Google Play is allowing Epic to do it. Fortnite is still on the Google Play store. (The writing has been on the wall and Google is already adapting - they sent out surveys last month to some developers about dropping the 30% fee and charging developers an annual listing fee instead - possibly also fees for bandwidth/storage used like a hosting company does. The survey also mentioned plans to spin off the Google Play store as a separate non-Google company.)
      - RussianCow 6y ago
        Not anymore: https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368363/epic-google-fortnite-lawsuit-antitrust-app-play-store-apple-removal https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368363/epic-google-fort...
        SyneRyder 6y ago
        Aha, saw that myself an hour ago too. Wish I'd downloaded Fortnite now when I could. Thanks for the correction. The Google survey I received specifically asked about experiences as a developer with the Epic Store, whether I thought customers would pay a subscription fee for access to the Play Store & Android updates, and whether I would trust the Play Store & Android if they were no longer owned and run by Google/Alphabet. So it will be fascinating to see how the court rulings change the tech landscape.
  - kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
    I don't want to change my phone. I want to change my App Store. Why can't I? Because the App Store is a monopoly.
    - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
      It can easily be argued that the app store is just as much the product as the A13 chip.
      - kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
        I would say it's actually quite hard to argue that. Consumers upgrade their phone primarily based on hardware specifications.
        ntsplnkv2 6y ago
        This simply isn't true, the market is too diverse to make any assumption like you just did. Some do upgrade based on "hardware specs." Go ask your mom what mhz are. Yea, I'll wait. iOS is the large reason people choose iPhones over Android. The phone is simply a portal to iOS. Without the OS the phone is essentially a brick. To argue the hardware is the only product is an absolute falsehood.
        hug 6y ago
        I agree with you that iOS is the product, but I agree with the GP that the capital-letters App Store has very little to do with it. To re-use your mom as the argument: * Go grab her phone and point at any given app, and ask if it's available on Android too. * Ask her if she knows the differences are between the Play Store and the App Store. * Ask her if she thinks there is any material difference between getting applications onto an Android phone versus an iPhone. She presumably doesn't know anything about these things, makes the assumption that apps are apps, and leaves it at that.
        ntsplnkv2 6y ago
- ernst_klim 6y ago
  If you don't like the service or product, don't buy it. There are Android, Sailfish, Postmarket, Mer. It's extremely unethical in my opinion to force some service provider to adjust the service to your needs/preferences.
  - 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
    Why on earth is it unethical?
    - kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
      It's not. The entire purpose of regulation is to fix bad market practices.
    - ernst_klim 6y ago
      You are restricting other people's right to agree on terms they deem fit. It's unethical in my opinion, until an agreement hurt any third party.
  - kickopotomus 6y ago
    I bought my device. I own it outright. It should be up to me, not Apple, what software I would like to run on my device. It is extremely unethical for a company to dictate what software I am allowed to run on hardware that I own. It is even more unethical for that company to then take a portion of my payment away from the developer without allowing another avenue for the transaction to take place. This would not be an issue if Apple allowed users to easily side load apps.
    - ernst_klim 6y ago
      > It should be up to me, not Apple, what software I would like to run on my device. Sorry, you are building a strawman here. 1) You have the full right to do whatever you want with your phone. I don't argue with that, it's the truth. 2) Apple need not to help you to do whatever you want with your phone. For some reason you confuse your right to do whatever you want with your phone with Apple's obligation to help you with that. Do reverse engineering, flash custom OS, jailbreak, it's your right, but Apple has no obligation to help you with that. If it's to hard for you to do whatever you want with their device, buy another vendor's device then.
- scarface74 6y ago
  No one forced you to be an Apple consumer.
csharptwdec19 6y ago
A 30% 'Finders Fee' is one thing. A 30% Tax Forever is a whole different problem.
RonanTheGrey 6y ago
> I don't see the problem, Epic explicitly went around the app store's payment process and terms of service. Epic HAD to do this in order to force the issue in order to claim specific harm. Of COURSE Apple pulled the app, and Epic knew they would. Epic now gets to claim that Apple's behavior is consumer-hostile and anticompetitive. That's a claim they cannot make without a concrete example of harm (this is just how the courts work). Saying that "Apple was within their rights" is the same argument as "If it is legal it is moral" which we all know is not true. > Why should Epic get a “special arrangement” from all other developers? They shouldn't. And neither should Amazon - they do. Or any other example where Apple has made exceptions to their rules, if your company is big enough.

kqvamxurcagg 6y ago

As a consumer, why can't there be an alternative App Store on IoS if I don't like the Apple terms? Apple shouldn't force consumers and developers to provide them with 30%.

ntsplnkv2 6y ago
There is - buy the more popular, larger market share Android phone and your problem is solved.
- RussianCow 6y ago
  And have the same issue with Google Play? They also take a 30% cut.
  - ernst_klim 6y ago
    Install F-droid, or one of the Chinese markets.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    Android can easily sideload applications or use other app stores. It simply isn't a problem there.
  - SyneRyder 6y ago
    Google Play is allowing Epic to do it. Fortnite is still on the Google Play store. (The writing has been on the wall and Google is already adapting - they sent out surveys last month to some developers about dropping the 30% fee and charging developers an annual listing fee instead - possibly also fees for bandwidth/storage used like a hosting company does. The survey also mentioned plans to spin off the Google Play store as a separate non-Google company.)
    - RussianCow 6y ago
      Not anymore: https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368363/epic-google-fortnite-lawsuit-antitrust-app-play-store-apple-removal https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368363/epic-google-fort...
      - SyneRyder 6y ago
        Aha, saw that myself an hour ago too. Wish I'd downloaded Fortnite now when I could. Thanks for the correction. The Google survey I received specifically asked about experiences as a developer with the Epic Store, whether I thought customers would pay a subscription fee for access to the Play Store & Android updates, and whether I would trust the Play Store & Android if they were no longer owned and run by Google/Alphabet. So it will be fascinating to see how the court rulings change the tech landscape.
- kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
  I don't want to change my phone. I want to change my App Store. Why can't I? Because the App Store is a monopoly.
  - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
    It can easily be argued that the app store is just as much the product as the A13 chip.
    - kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
      I would say it's actually quite hard to argue that. Consumers upgrade their phone primarily based on hardware specifications.
      - ntsplnkv2 6y ago
        This simply isn't true, the market is too diverse to make any assumption like you just did. Some do upgrade based on "hardware specs." Go ask your mom what mhz are. Yea, I'll wait. iOS is the large reason people choose iPhones over Android. The phone is simply a portal to iOS. Without the OS the phone is essentially a brick. To argue the hardware is the only product is an absolute falsehood.
        hug 6y ago
        I agree with you that iOS is the product, but I agree with the GP that the capital-letters App Store has very little to do with it. To re-use your mom as the argument: * Go grab her phone and point at any given app, and ask if it's available on Android too. * Ask her if she knows the differences are between the Play Store and the App Store. * Ask her if she thinks there is any material difference between getting applications onto an Android phone versus an iPhone. She presumably doesn't know anything about these things, makes the assumption that apps are apps, and leaves it at that.
        ntsplnkv2 6y ago
ernst_klim 6y ago
If you don't like the service or product, don't buy it. There are Android, Sailfish, Postmarket, Mer. It's extremely unethical in my opinion to force some service provider to adjust the service to your needs/preferences.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
  Why on earth is it unethical?
  - kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
    It's not. The entire purpose of regulation is to fix bad market practices.
  - ernst_klim 6y ago
    You are restricting other people's right to agree on terms they deem fit. It's unethical in my opinion, until an agreement hurt any third party.
- kickopotomus 6y ago
  I bought my device. I own it outright. It should be up to me, not Apple, what software I would like to run on my device. It is extremely unethical for a company to dictate what software I am allowed to run on hardware that I own. It is even more unethical for that company to then take a portion of my payment away from the developer without allowing another avenue for the transaction to take place. This would not be an issue if Apple allowed users to easily side load apps.
  - ernst_klim 6y ago
    > It should be up to me, not Apple, what software I would like to run on my device. Sorry, you are building a strawman here. 1) You have the full right to do whatever you want with your phone. I don't argue with that, it's the truth. 2) Apple need not to help you to do whatever you want with your phone. For some reason you confuse your right to do whatever you want with your phone with Apple's obligation to help you with that. Do reverse engineering, flash custom OS, jailbreak, it's your right, but Apple has no obligation to help you with that. If it's to hard for you to do whatever you want with their device, buy another vendor's device then.
scarface74 6y ago
No one forced you to be an Apple consumer.

csharptwdec19 6y ago

A 30% 'Finders Fee' is one thing. A 30% Tax Forever is a whole different problem.

RonanTheGrey 6y ago

> I don't see the problem, Epic explicitly went around the app store's payment process and terms of service. Epic HAD to do this in order to force the issue in order to claim specific harm. Of COURSE Apple pulled the app, and Epic knew they would. Epic now gets to claim that Apple's behavior is consumer-hostile and anticompetitive. That's a claim they cannot make without a concrete example of harm (this is just how the courts work). Saying that "Apple was within their rights" is the same argument as "If it is legal it is moral" which we all know is not true. > Why should Epic get a “special arrangement” from all other developers? They shouldn't. And neither should Amazon - they do. Or any other example where Apple has made exceptions to their rules, if your company is big enough.