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I can’t believe how dismissive people are about people who are worried about their finances during this. So many false equivalencies being made about bankruptc

I can’t believe how dismissive people are about people who are worried about their finances during this. So many false equivalencies being made about bankruptcy being preferable to death. I am not one of these people that is cavalier about COVID, it’s a real danger and the long term damage to the body is just being discovered. But we all know for sure what the long term health effects of poverty are. Whether you like to admit it or not, the economy is vitally important to our health, life expectancy, and quality of living. You can be worried about both COVID and the economy.

tptacek 6y ago
The article says that parents are 5x as worried about C19 than about paying their mortgage. They're 1/5th as worried about the possible deaths of their family members as they are about their mortgage, which suggests that they, too, are very concerned about the economy.
- beaner 6y ago
  > The article says that parents are 5x as worried about C19 than about paying their mortgage. > They're 1/5th as worried about the possible deaths of their family members as they are about their mortgage These two statements seem to be in conflict? I think your 2nd statement means to say "They're 1/5th as worried about their mortgage than they are about the possible deaths of their family members."
  - tptacek 6y ago
    Yeah, I flipped the terms in the second one. The intent remains clear I think.
spaced-out 6y ago
If you care about the economy, the best thing we (the US) can do is follow the lead of other countries that have gotten this under control with evidence-based measures, and push the government to provide support to those in need, so the economy can bounce back quickly, rather than sliding into depression.
- jacquesm 6y ago
  You currently do not have a government that will be swayed by evidence.
  - bezmenov 6y ago
    Yes, we’d be much better off with the currently sidelined government that has suggested the evidence should be ignored as long as you’re protesting civil rights.
    - NationalPark 6y ago
      People were pretty worried about this, but so far there isn't any evidence that protests caused spikes in case numbers. Obviously there's a lot about the virus we don't know or can't fully explain, but the prevailing explanation is that the combination of widespread mask usage by protesters, quarantining by would-be protesters who know they've been exposed, and being primarily outdoors prevented transmission.
      - leereeves 6y ago
        Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. PolitiFact tried to examine claims from the LA mayor and health director that: "it’s highly likely given the increased numbers that we’re seeing that some of this is in fact people who may have been in a crowded situation at one of the protests where there was spread." They concluded: > there’s not enough data to draw any definitive conclusions ... > Medical experts say the protests likely contributed somewhat, but so did family gatherings [and] the reopening of businesses https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/how-much-did-protests-contribute-las-covid-19-surg/ https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/how-much-did-...
      - bezmenov 6y ago
        Actually, the handful of half-competent governments who have handled the pandemic the best disagree: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-13/forced-isolation-may-be-the-only-way-to-stop-resurgence-of-virus https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-13/forced-is...
analyte123 6y ago
The US implemented essentially an entire year of forbearance on federally backed mortgages (6 months automatically, and another 6 months for filing a form with no documentation). Remaining local eviction moratoriums will expire in the next few months, although court backlogs will probably provide an additional time buffer. There are still more initial unemployment claims than there were at the peak of the 2008 financial crisis. The $2400 per month unemployment subsidy has just expired and won't be fully replaced. In other words, the economic and social fallout has barely begun. Overdose deaths are already up 50% from last year in many places.
- departure 6y ago
  >Remaining local eviction moratoriums will expire in the next few months, although court backlogs will probably provide an additional time buffer. Only if you're lucky enough to live in one of the progressive states, Louisiana has already started evicting people. In Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton has already released documents saying that local governments can't stop or delay evictions.
  - cmurf 6y ago
    Tennessee just made it a Class E felony to camp outside the capitol. Protesters have been doing this for months but it would apply to squelch protesters and homeless alike. Up to six years prison, and loss of voting rights, is the penalty.
    - HumblyTossed 6y ago
      Republicans hate the poor and yet are so willing to create more of them.
      - cmurf 6y ago
        I'm not sure they want to create more, there is a risk of "rebel's dilemma" if there are too many or things get too awful. But the Republican party is merely the political wing of a certain aristocratic mind set which includes conservatism: rich people are better people, it is a fact. There should be either no public services or inferior versions compared to the free market, because that's how rich people are rewarded for being inherently superior people - they can afford to buy more and better things. This properly includes education, health care, clean air and water, and justice. These things are not rights. They are products you buy. It's similar to prosperity theology. The closer to god, the more you are rewarded. The more rewarded you are, the closer to the deity you must be. Monarchies, feudalism, and Mandate of Heaven.
gopalv 6y ago
> Whether you like to admit it or not, the economy is vitally important to our health, life expectancy, and quality of living. You can be worried about both COVID and the economy. We have the technology to revive an economy - remember, we're on an all time stock rally & going higher. At least from the NZ example (or Canada), it is clear that a war footing on the pandemic does bring back demand - the supply is easier to revive. The economy is made of people, even if the entire supply side is automated. Though if you automate both sides, you can end up with a two-body simulation of a high GDP economy[1]. [1] - https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-01-14 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-01-14
okamiueru 6y ago
Is this due to news in the US? Media and politics there is so different and confusing that I feel it's a completely different reality.
draw_down 6y ago
I agree, I just don't know if the situation as simple as "preventative measures or an economy, pick one". Maybe the economy gets screwed no matter what we pick. Like, if a restaurant is getting 25% of its usual business, is that because the government is requiring masks and social distancing, or is it because people just don't feel comfortable going to restaurants right now? I don't mean to imply I know the answer, though for myself I'm definitely not interested in going to restaurants right now. I just see this cavalier assumption that there is some obvious step that people in power can take to make the economy good and they're just not doing it. I think it's easier to focus on that than to acknowledge stuff is gonna get bad regardless, and it's just shades of gray on how bad things will get and in which direction.
eirini1 6y ago
the problem is not people who are worried about their finances - that is understandable. The problem is people who want to put finances over covid, mostly because covid requires certain measures in order to be eradicated (objectively) whereas an economy can (at the very least temporarily) be switched to a mode where people do not have to worry about their finances (such as UBI or a command economy). What makes at least me angry is people who are pretending that the way our economy functions right now has to be how it functions in every situation. It comes off as dogmatic and religious thinking.
- Elof 6y ago
  100% this. The economy isn't part of nature. In it's current form it's a relatively new social construct that honestly doesn't seem to be working very well for a lot of the global population
  - kazen44 6y ago
    I would even dare to the say that post keynesian economics has been worse for a major part of the population inside a western economy. Economic growth in and of itself might be better, but how much of the population sees the result of that? basic commodoties like housing and social wellbeing/services are worse, while most of the economic growth seems to be stuck at the top. Also, having massive growth is simply not sustainable for our planet. Dire change is needed, the question is what? It seems most major forces in politics are stuck in maintaining the status quo and not thinking long term. Change from that system would be hard to realise, especially in the complete gridlock of american politics.
- mikem170 6y ago
  >mostly because covid requires certain measures in order to be eradicated I thought we were flattening the curve... What makes you think this can be eradicated? Source?
  - eirini1 6y ago
    If a virus cannot transmit itself at all it will eventually die off completely as it cannot reproduce.
Elof 6y ago
You can also be worried about both but more worried about one or the other. I'm a parent who was laid off because of COVID and I'm more worried about my kids health than the economy or my ability to get another job. That doesn't mean I'm not worried about the economy or trying to minimize the impact a bad economy will have on society/individuals.
PeterisP 6y ago
It feels like that this is an issue where the problem is looking at the averages, which are meaningless here. We have a bunch of people who are rightfully very worried about their finances, but we also have very many people who are quite certain that their finances are going to be okay while other people will get kicked in the nuts by the downturn resulting in poverty and bankruptcies, so they have other priorities that they are worrying about - such as infection and schooling. If 1 in 5 people can't pay their mortgage, that's an economic catastrophe - but even if such a catastrophe is upcoming it makes all sense if the other 4 in 5 people wouldn't be worried about paying their mortgage.
adrianb 6y ago
People (especially online) have been shockingly dismissive of everything, in COVID context. Worried about the economy? You probably only want to get rich on the stock market. Worried you might lose your job? You probably have one of those shit-jobs we've been hearing about, no big loss there. Worried remote schooling might affect children's long term development? Schools are useless anyway. Worried that art and culture like concerts, museums, theatres might disappear? We don't need them, just watch operas on Youtube and browse pictures of famous paintings. Travel? Just go to StreetView. It's scary how quick people are to let go of elements of society and civilisation, some of which took centuries to build. Yes, nothing is perfect but these attitudes are not working towards implementing something better.

tptacek 6y ago

The article says that parents are 5x as worried about C19 than about paying their mortgage. They're 1/5th as worried about the possible deaths of their family members as they are about their mortgage, which suggests that they, too, are very concerned about the economy.

beaner 6y ago
> The article says that parents are 5x as worried about C19 than about paying their mortgage. > They're 1/5th as worried about the possible deaths of their family members as they are about their mortgage These two statements seem to be in conflict? I think your 2nd statement means to say "They're 1/5th as worried about their mortgage than they are about the possible deaths of their family members."
- tptacek 6y ago
  Yeah, I flipped the terms in the second one. The intent remains clear I think.

spaced-out 6y ago

If you care about the economy, the best thing we (the US) can do is follow the lead of other countries that have gotten this under control with evidence-based measures, and push the government to provide support to those in need, so the economy can bounce back quickly, rather than sliding into depression.

jacquesm 6y ago
You currently do not have a government that will be swayed by evidence.
- bezmenov 6y ago
  Yes, we’d be much better off with the currently sidelined government that has suggested the evidence should be ignored as long as you’re protesting civil rights.
  - NationalPark 6y ago
    People were pretty worried about this, but so far there isn't any evidence that protests caused spikes in case numbers. Obviously there's a lot about the virus we don't know or can't fully explain, but the prevailing explanation is that the combination of widespread mask usage by protesters, quarantining by would-be protesters who know they've been exposed, and being primarily outdoors prevented transmission.
    - leereeves 6y ago
      Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. PolitiFact tried to examine claims from the LA mayor and health director that: "it’s highly likely given the increased numbers that we’re seeing that some of this is in fact people who may have been in a crowded situation at one of the protests where there was spread." They concluded: > there’s not enough data to draw any definitive conclusions ... > Medical experts say the protests likely contributed somewhat, but so did family gatherings [and] the reopening of businesses https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/how-much-did-protests-contribute-las-covid-19-surg/ https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/jul/21/how-much-did-...
    - bezmenov 6y ago
      Actually, the handful of half-competent governments who have handled the pandemic the best disagree: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-13/forced-isolation-may-be-the-only-way-to-stop-resurgence-of-virus https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-08-13/forced-is...

analyte123 6y ago

The US implemented essentially an entire year of forbearance on federally backed mortgages (6 months automatically, and another 6 months for filing a form with no documentation). Remaining local eviction moratoriums will expire in the next few months, although court backlogs will probably provide an additional time buffer. There are still more initial unemployment claims than there were at the peak of the 2008 financial crisis. The $2400 per month unemployment subsidy has just expired and won't be fully replaced. In other words, the economic and social fallout has barely begun. Overdose deaths are already up 50% from last year in many places.

departure 6y ago
>Remaining local eviction moratoriums will expire in the next few months, although court backlogs will probably provide an additional time buffer. Only if you're lucky enough to live in one of the progressive states, Louisiana has already started evicting people. In Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton has already released documents saying that local governments can't stop or delay evictions.
- cmurf 6y ago
  Tennessee just made it a Class E felony to camp outside the capitol. Protesters have been doing this for months but it would apply to squelch protesters and homeless alike. Up to six years prison, and loss of voting rights, is the penalty.
  - HumblyTossed 6y ago
    Republicans hate the poor and yet are so willing to create more of them.
    - cmurf 6y ago
      I'm not sure they want to create more, there is a risk of "rebel's dilemma" if there are too many or things get too awful. But the Republican party is merely the political wing of a certain aristocratic mind set which includes conservatism: rich people are better people, it is a fact. There should be either no public services or inferior versions compared to the free market, because that's how rich people are rewarded for being inherently superior people - they can afford to buy more and better things. This properly includes education, health care, clean air and water, and justice. These things are not rights. They are products you buy. It's similar to prosperity theology. The closer to god, the more you are rewarded. The more rewarded you are, the closer to the deity you must be. Monarchies, feudalism, and Mandate of Heaven.

gopalv 6y ago

> Whether you like to admit it or not, the economy is vitally important to our health, life expectancy, and quality of living. You can be worried about both COVID and the economy. We have the technology to revive an economy - remember, we're on an all time stock rally & going higher. At least from the NZ example (or Canada), it is clear that a war footing on the pandemic does bring back demand - the supply is easier to revive. The economy is made of people, even if the entire supply side is automated. Though if you automate both sides, you can end up with a two-body simulation of a high GDP economy[1]. [1] - https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-01-14 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-01-14

okamiueru 6y ago

Is this due to news in the US? Media and politics there is so different and confusing that I feel it's a completely different reality.

draw_down 6y ago

I agree, I just don't know if the situation as simple as "preventative measures or an economy, pick one". Maybe the economy gets screwed no matter what we pick. Like, if a restaurant is getting 25% of its usual business, is that because the government is requiring masks and social distancing, or is it because people just don't feel comfortable going to restaurants right now? I don't mean to imply I know the answer, though for myself I'm definitely not interested in going to restaurants right now. I just see this cavalier assumption that there is some obvious step that people in power can take to make the economy good and they're just not doing it. I think it's easier to focus on that than to acknowledge stuff is gonna get bad regardless, and it's just shades of gray on how bad things will get and in which direction.

eirini1 6y ago

the problem is not people who are worried about their finances - that is understandable. The problem is people who want to put finances over covid, mostly because covid requires certain measures in order to be eradicated (objectively) whereas an economy can (at the very least temporarily) be switched to a mode where people do not have to worry about their finances (such as UBI or a command economy). What makes at least me angry is people who are pretending that the way our economy functions right now has to be how it functions in every situation. It comes off as dogmatic and religious thinking.

Elof 6y ago
100% this. The economy isn't part of nature. In it's current form it's a relatively new social construct that honestly doesn't seem to be working very well for a lot of the global population
- kazen44 6y ago
  I would even dare to the say that post keynesian economics has been worse for a major part of the population inside a western economy. Economic growth in and of itself might be better, but how much of the population sees the result of that? basic commodoties like housing and social wellbeing/services are worse, while most of the economic growth seems to be stuck at the top. Also, having massive growth is simply not sustainable for our planet. Dire change is needed, the question is what? It seems most major forces in politics are stuck in maintaining the status quo and not thinking long term. Change from that system would be hard to realise, especially in the complete gridlock of american politics.
mikem170 6y ago
>mostly because covid requires certain measures in order to be eradicated I thought we were flattening the curve... What makes you think this can be eradicated? Source?
- eirini1 6y ago
  If a virus cannot transmit itself at all it will eventually die off completely as it cannot reproduce.

Elof 6y ago

You can also be worried about both but more worried about one or the other. I'm a parent who was laid off because of COVID and I'm more worried about my kids health than the economy or my ability to get another job. That doesn't mean I'm not worried about the economy or trying to minimize the impact a bad economy will have on society/individuals.

PeterisP 6y ago

It feels like that this is an issue where the problem is looking at the averages, which are meaningless here. We have a bunch of people who are rightfully very worried about their finances, but we also have very many people who are quite certain that their finances are going to be okay while other people will get kicked in the nuts by the downturn resulting in poverty and bankruptcies, so they have other priorities that they are worrying about - such as infection and schooling. If 1 in 5 people can't pay their mortgage, that's an economic catastrophe - but even if such a catastrophe is upcoming it makes all sense if the other 4 in 5 people wouldn't be worried about paying their mortgage.

adrianb 6y ago

People (especially online) have been shockingly dismissive of everything, in COVID context. Worried about the economy? You probably only want to get rich on the stock market. Worried you might lose your job? You probably have one of those shit-jobs we've been hearing about, no big loss there. Worried remote schooling might affect children's long term development? Schools are useless anyway. Worried that art and culture like concerts, museums, theatres might disappear? We don't need them, just watch operas on Youtube and browse pictures of famous paintings. Travel? Just go to StreetView. It's scary how quick people are to let go of elements of society and civilisation, some of which took centuries to build. Yes, nothing is perfect but these attitudes are not working towards implementing something better.