6 ms·

Apple is more than welcome to put whatever rules they want on their systems. My phone is not their system though, it’s mine! If I want to run tmux/fetchmail/oca

by swiley 6y ago

Apple is more than welcome to put whatever rules they want on their systems. My phone is not their system though, it’s mine! If I want to run tmux/fetchmail/ocamlc on it then it’s my problem not theirs!

Findeton 6y ago
I'm sure if you install some version of Linux in your iPhone you can do whatever you want. But you're probably using iOS.
- swiley 6y ago
  I would install desktop Linux on my iPhone if I could but there are no drivers in mainline and they work hard to lock the bootloader down (and before someone suggests android, the intention there is just as bad but tends to be less well executed and there still aren’t suitable drivers available.)
  - Findeton 6y ago
    Well if your intention is to install Linux in your phone maybe iPhone is not the best choice.
    - swiley 6y ago
      Give me a better choice and I’ll go buy it right now if it actually works. Anything requiring a single android component goes in the “doesn’t actually work” category.
      - Findeton 6y ago
        Well if Apple is the best choice then there's no need to complain to them.
        swiley 6y ago
        The reason they’re the best choice is because I’m stuck with whatever OS the device ships with and android is a pretty broken OS. Neither is nice but at least iOS gets updates.
      - Spivak 6y ago
        I mean the Librem 5 "works" in the way you describe. I don't think you're going to really be able to reliably avoid the problem that very very very few people outside of AOSP are doing any work on OSS for phones.
        swiley 6y ago
        I bought a pine phone the other month when the postmarketOS version was released. I’m looking forward to getting it some time in November.
      - __d 6y ago
        On what grounds are you demanding that Apple sell the product that you want to buy? They sell products. Those products have well-known rules. If you don't like the rules, don't buy the product.
        9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
        This sounds like some gop talking point, embarrassing.
        __d 6y ago
        That's the nature of our society. An argument can be made that it's morally wrong, but if you're going down that road, there's a lot of things should be morally more compelling than Apple's AppStore policies.
- leadingthenet 6y ago
  They don’t really give you the option of installing Linux on the iPhone tho, do they?
  - Spivak 6y ago
    This is pretty much the whole legal theory of locked-down devices. Since you own them you're free to whatever you like to the hardware including breaking any locks preventing you from running your own software on them. But the vendor has no obligation to help, or support you in doing this. This is pretty much the whole reason the GPLv3 exists.
    - erklik 6y ago
      > But the vendor has no obligation to help, or support you in doing this. No obligation to help vs actively hindering are not really the same thing.
skizm 6y ago
Agreed it shouldn't be illegal, but Apple (or any hardware / software maker) should be allowed to do everything in their power to make this extremely inconvenient by putting in hardware blocks, bricking logic, updating their software regularly with new obfuscation techniques, etc. and also, voiding the warranty if there is evidence of tampering with hardware or software.
- swiley 6y ago
  I understand where you’re coming from and would be ok if it were easy (or even possible) for the community to build an alternative device but that doesn’t appear to be the case. The technical and social reality that giving apple the freedom to configure the majority of devices in the US is extremely unpleasant. Enough that it makes me question the principles driving the philosophy that allowed this (in particular, the legality of closed software.)
  - young_unixer 6y ago
    > if it were easy (or even possible) for the community to build an alternative device but that doesn’t appear to be the case. One of the main roadblocks is intellectual property law. If IP didn't exist, there would be all sorts of iPhone clones with modified versions of iOS. I'm OK with closed source software being legal, prohibiting closed source would be tyrannical. What I'm not OK is with software patents, copyright, anti-hardware-hacking laws, etc.
- stale2002 6y ago
  It has been well established for almost a hundred years now, that anti-competitive behavior is illegal, and will be prosecuted against.
- ubercow13 6y ago
  Why should any company be allowed to intentionally brick a product I own because I am doing something legal with it that they don't like?
  - 6y ago
rokobobo 6y ago
I am not defending closed platforms, but technically, you are free to jailbreak your phone, they're just not obligated to provide any support after that, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Legality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Legality
- rndmze 6y ago
  heh, jailbreak is a bad solution to a problem that should not exist. You should not have to rely on security issues in order to install whatever you want on your phone. Jailbreak should only be needed when you want to replace OS blocks, not just install something.
- webstrand 6y ago
  If Apple provided a way to jailbreak their devices, I'd be more inclined to support this argument. But they try to prevent jailbreaking at every opportunity so, regardless of the legality of it, Apple does not consider the phone your system, they consider it theirs.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    No. There's no check for Cydia or other Debian Package frontends that are there to void your warranty or stop you from downloading cracked apps (they very well could do this). They only patch the security vulnerabilities that are actually used to break out of the app sandbox and run arbitrary code, something that, as we can see with Epic's Fortnite app, could be RCE'd into an app without Apple knowing. These vulnerabilities can and have been used by actual malware in the past[0], so Apple fixing them in iOS is a legitimate security measure. 0: https://blog.talosintelligence.com/2019/10/checkrain-click-fraud.html https://blog.talosintelligence.com/2019/10/checkrain-click-f...
    - ReverseCold 6y ago
      Right, but there’s no non-security-vulnerability way to jailbreak. If jailbreaking was as easy as `adb oem unlock`, no one would need to use any security issues to jailbreak.

by swiley 6y ago

Findeton 6y ago

I'm sure if you install some version of Linux in your iPhone you can do whatever you want. But you're probably using iOS.

swiley 6y ago
I would install desktop Linux on my iPhone if I could but there are no drivers in mainline and they work hard to lock the bootloader down (and before someone suggests android, the intention there is just as bad but tends to be less well executed and there still aren’t suitable drivers available.)
- Findeton 6y ago
  Well if your intention is to install Linux in your phone maybe iPhone is not the best choice.
  - swiley 6y ago
    Give me a better choice and I’ll go buy it right now if it actually works. Anything requiring a single android component goes in the “doesn’t actually work” category.
    - Findeton 6y ago
      Well if Apple is the best choice then there's no need to complain to them.
      - swiley 6y ago
        The reason they’re the best choice is because I’m stuck with whatever OS the device ships with and android is a pretty broken OS. Neither is nice but at least iOS gets updates.
    - Spivak 6y ago
      I mean the Librem 5 "works" in the way you describe. I don't think you're going to really be able to reliably avoid the problem that very very very few people outside of AOSP are doing any work on OSS for phones.
      - swiley 6y ago
        I bought a pine phone the other month when the postmarketOS version was released. I’m looking forward to getting it some time in November.
    - __d 6y ago
      On what grounds are you demanding that Apple sell the product that you want to buy? They sell products. Those products have well-known rules. If you don't like the rules, don't buy the product.
      - 9HZZRfNlpR 6y ago
        This sounds like some gop talking point, embarrassing.
        __d 6y ago
        That's the nature of our society. An argument can be made that it's morally wrong, but if you're going down that road, there's a lot of things should be morally more compelling than Apple's AppStore policies.
leadingthenet 6y ago
They don’t really give you the option of installing Linux on the iPhone tho, do they?
- Spivak 6y ago
  This is pretty much the whole legal theory of locked-down devices. Since you own them you're free to whatever you like to the hardware including breaking any locks preventing you from running your own software on them. But the vendor has no obligation to help, or support you in doing this. This is pretty much the whole reason the GPLv3 exists.
  - erklik 6y ago
    > But the vendor has no obligation to help, or support you in doing this. No obligation to help vs actively hindering are not really the same thing.

skizm 6y ago

Agreed it shouldn't be illegal, but Apple (or any hardware / software maker) should be allowed to do everything in their power to make this extremely inconvenient by putting in hardware blocks, bricking logic, updating their software regularly with new obfuscation techniques, etc. and also, voiding the warranty if there is evidence of tampering with hardware or software.

swiley 6y ago
I understand where you’re coming from and would be ok if it were easy (or even possible) for the community to build an alternative device but that doesn’t appear to be the case. The technical and social reality that giving apple the freedom to configure the majority of devices in the US is extremely unpleasant. Enough that it makes me question the principles driving the philosophy that allowed this (in particular, the legality of closed software.)
- young_unixer 6y ago
  > if it were easy (or even possible) for the community to build an alternative device but that doesn’t appear to be the case. One of the main roadblocks is intellectual property law. If IP didn't exist, there would be all sorts of iPhone clones with modified versions of iOS. I'm OK with closed source software being legal, prohibiting closed source would be tyrannical. What I'm not OK is with software patents, copyright, anti-hardware-hacking laws, etc.
stale2002 6y ago
It has been well established for almost a hundred years now, that anti-competitive behavior is illegal, and will be prosecuted against.
ubercow13 6y ago
Why should any company be allowed to intentionally brick a product I own because I am doing something legal with it that they don't like?
- 6y ago

rokobobo 6y ago

I am not defending closed platforms, but technically, you are free to jailbreak your phone, they're just not obligated to provide any support after that, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Legality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking#Legality

rndmze 6y ago
heh, jailbreak is a bad solution to a problem that should not exist. You should not have to rely on security issues in order to install whatever you want on your phone. Jailbreak should only be needed when you want to replace OS blocks, not just install something.
webstrand 6y ago
If Apple provided a way to jailbreak their devices, I'd be more inclined to support this argument. But they try to prevent jailbreaking at every opportunity so, regardless of the legality of it, Apple does not consider the phone your system, they consider it theirs.
- judge2020 6y ago
  No. There's no check for Cydia or other Debian Package frontends that are there to void your warranty or stop you from downloading cracked apps (they very well could do this). They only patch the security vulnerabilities that are actually used to break out of the app sandbox and run arbitrary code, something that, as we can see with Epic's Fortnite app, could be RCE'd into an app without Apple knowing. These vulnerabilities can and have been used by actual malware in the past[0], so Apple fixing them in iOS is a legitimate security measure. 0: https://blog.talosintelligence.com/2019/10/checkrain-click-fraud.html https://blog.talosintelligence.com/2019/10/checkrain-click-f...
  - ReverseCold 6y ago
    Right, but there’s no non-security-vulnerability way to jailbreak. If jailbreaking was as easy as `adb oem unlock`, no one would need to use any security issues to jailbreak.