4 ms·

Apple can just point to mobile Safari. There is nothing stopping you from building whatever you want on the web these days.

AsyncAwait 6y ago
Even there, they limit PWAs and do not allow competitors to use their own engines.
jedberg 6y ago
I can list a ton of APIs that are available to native iPhone apps that aren't available to apps via Safari. Push notifications being the most notable, in part because they are purposely not supporting an open standard.
- inetknght 6y ago
  > I can list a ton of APIs that are available to native iPhone apps that aren't available to apps via Safari. And thank God for that! I don't want websites in Safari to have the APIs available to a native app!
  - la_oveja 6y ago
    You would be asked to give permission to these APIs, just like you do in a normal web browser.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    Me neither! That's why we need 3rd party app stores.
    - inetknght 6y ago
      > Me neither! That's why we need 3rd party app stores. Nope, not at all. You want 3rd party app stores because: 1) you don't believe Apple's walled garden is worth a 30% cut 2) you dislike Apple's lack of transparency in their app review procedures 3) you're unable to sideload an app onto your "customer's" devices One or more of those are why you "need" third party app stores. And, I think you've got a valid argument for any of them. But none of those have anything to do with what APIs are available to websites in Safari.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - arthurcolle 6y ago
    Yeah, forcing you to buy apps in Apple's walled garden. Such an uninformed take.
emsy 6y ago
Apple has a history of very late adoption up to complete dismissal of web standards such as Web Bluetooth to prevent just that.
paxys 6y ago
Except that Apple themselves choose to not support the necessary APIs in Safari that would make PWAs feasible.
syshum 6y ago
>>There is nothing stopping you from building whatever you want on the web these days. ummm Safari stops you given it is a terrible browser, and is non-compatible with many modern features
g_p 6y ago
Apple's restriction of access to device capabilities/sensors through web "apps" would likely be arguable as a restriction designed to prevent this, and force you into entering their burdensome and anti-competitive marketplace with fixed 30% fee.
ultrarunner 6y ago
Give me PWA notifications and I'd be more apt to agree with you.
asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
They can try, but since it's not really possible to build Fortnite and make it run efficiently on mobile safari, I doubt they'll get very far. Section III is the missing piece of the legal puzzle for me. I have in the past been convinced that the presence of Android is sufficient to prevent a lawsuit like this from succeeding against Apple. But now I'm not so sure. III. Competition in the Sale of Mobile Devices Cannot Discipline Apple’s Conduct in the iOS App Distribution or iOS In-App Payment Processing Markets. 156. Competition in the sale of mobile devices cannot constrain Apple’s anti-competitive conduct described in Parts I and II. 157. First, Apple’s power in the relevant markets described above is not disciplined by competition in the sale of mobile devices because Apple mobile device customers face significant switching costs and customer lock-in to Apple’s iOS ecosystem. How many news articles have we seen about the power of iMessage to keep people in the Apple ecosystem? It's gonna be hard for Apple to argue that they don't try to engender consumer lock in given their plain reluctance to interoperate and all the news articles talking about how strong this effect is. I think Epic has a chance here. Certainly it's a gamble I'd love to see them win. IANAL.
mhermher 6y ago
Maybe their shitty and outdated implementation of standards is what is holding them back. Maybe just use another browser though right...
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
You can't build a messenger in Safari that pings when someone is sending you a message. Actually, you wouldn't be able to do that even with app side loading, because Apple does not allow apps to work in background and must rely on push notifications to wake up from sleep. If Apple is forced to allow third-party stores, it should also be forced to allow third-party push notifications.
- threeseed 6y ago
  And what other arbitrary features should Apple be "forced" to build. Especially ones like push notifications which in many cases are harmful to consumers.
  - darwinwhy 6y ago
    I'd much rather get my push notifications from Facebook Messenger through mobile Safari than be forced to install the full iOS app.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    It should be up to device owners, not Apple to decide what services can send push notifications to device. On macOS, you can run a background service that listens to whatever the user needs. But on iOS, Apple behaves like it owns the device even after sale. This is not acceptable.
  - Osiris 6y ago
    It sounds more like removing restrictions than ADDING features. Push notifications already exist but with arbitrary restrictions. They don't have to "build" anything.
    - sneak 6y ago
      iOS push notifications from developers all go to Apple first, as the phones only maintain a connection to Apple. Every push notification goes through Apple servers only. They’d have to build a feature into iOS to allow it to maintain persistent connections to other notification services.
ronanyeah 6y ago
As a PWA developer I can only laugh at this comment.
sebmellen 6y ago
If you tried developing a PWA with mobile Safari support, and then reexamined this comment, I think you would quickly realize how ridiculous this sounds.
- fooey 6y ago
  Safari is the new IE6, and it's hamstringing the web on purpose, just like MS did back in the day.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Great analogy. I always get annoyed when I end up on caniuse and Safari sticks out like a sore thumb, along with Opera Mini (lol).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
virtue3 6y ago
Yes Mobile Safari, where it is the -only- browser that is considered on iOS. "The WebRTC APIs have not yet been exposed to iOS browsers using WKWebView . In practice, this means that your web-based WebRTC application will only work in Safari on iOS, and not in any other browser the user may have installed (Chrome, for example), nor in an 'in-app' version of Safari.Sep 7, 2018" Im sure there are more examples.

AsyncAwait 6y ago

Even there, they limit PWAs and do not allow competitors to use their own engines.

jedberg 6y ago

I can list a ton of APIs that are available to native iPhone apps that aren't available to apps via Safari. Push notifications being the most notable, in part because they are purposely not supporting an open standard.

inetknght 6y ago
> I can list a ton of APIs that are available to native iPhone apps that aren't available to apps via Safari. And thank God for that! I don't want websites in Safari to have the APIs available to a native app!
- la_oveja 6y ago
  You would be asked to give permission to these APIs, just like you do in a normal web browser.
- jedberg 6y ago
  Me neither! That's why we need 3rd party app stores.
  - inetknght 6y ago
    > Me neither! That's why we need 3rd party app stores. Nope, not at all. You want 3rd party app stores because: 1) you don't believe Apple's walled garden is worth a 30% cut 2) you dislike Apple's lack of transparency in their app review procedures 3) you're unable to sideload an app onto your "customer's" devices One or more of those are why you "need" third party app stores. And, I think you've got a valid argument for any of them. But none of those have anything to do with what APIs are available to websites in Safari.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- arthurcolle 6y ago
  Yeah, forcing you to buy apps in Apple's walled garden. Such an uninformed take.

emsy 6y ago

Apple has a history of very late adoption up to complete dismissal of web standards such as Web Bluetooth to prevent just that.

paxys 6y ago

Except that Apple themselves choose to not support the necessary APIs in Safari that would make PWAs feasible.

syshum 6y ago

>>There is nothing stopping you from building whatever you want on the web these days. ummm Safari stops you given it is a terrible browser, and is non-compatible with many modern features

g_p 6y ago

Apple's restriction of access to device capabilities/sensors through web "apps" would likely be arguable as a restriction designed to prevent this, and force you into entering their burdensome and anti-competitive marketplace with fixed 30% fee.

ultrarunner 6y ago

Give me PWA notifications and I'd be more apt to agree with you.

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago

They can try, but since it's not really possible to build Fortnite and make it run efficiently on mobile safari, I doubt they'll get very far. Section III is the missing piece of the legal puzzle for me. I have in the past been convinced that the presence of Android is sufficient to prevent a lawsuit like this from succeeding against Apple. But now I'm not so sure. III. Competition in the Sale of Mobile Devices Cannot Discipline Apple’s Conduct in the iOS App Distribution or iOS In-App Payment Processing Markets. 156. Competition in the sale of mobile devices cannot constrain Apple’s anti-competitive conduct described in Parts I and II. 157. First, Apple’s power in the relevant markets described above is not disciplined by competition in the sale of mobile devices because Apple mobile device customers face significant switching costs and customer lock-in to Apple’s iOS ecosystem. How many news articles have we seen about the power of iMessage to keep people in the Apple ecosystem? It's gonna be hard for Apple to argue that they don't try to engender consumer lock in given their plain reluctance to interoperate and all the news articles talking about how strong this effect is. I think Epic has a chance here. Certainly it's a gamble I'd love to see them win. IANAL.

mhermher 6y ago

Maybe their shitty and outdated implementation of standards is what is holding them back. Maybe just use another browser though right...

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

You can't build a messenger in Safari that pings when someone is sending you a message. Actually, you wouldn't be able to do that even with app side loading, because Apple does not allow apps to work in background and must rely on push notifications to wake up from sleep. If Apple is forced to allow third-party stores, it should also be forced to allow third-party push notifications.

threeseed 6y ago
And what other arbitrary features should Apple be "forced" to build. Especially ones like push notifications which in many cases are harmful to consumers.
- darwinwhy 6y ago
  I'd much rather get my push notifications from Facebook Messenger through mobile Safari than be forced to install the full iOS app.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  It should be up to device owners, not Apple to decide what services can send push notifications to device. On macOS, you can run a background service that listens to whatever the user needs. But on iOS, Apple behaves like it owns the device even after sale. This is not acceptable.
- Osiris 6y ago
  It sounds more like removing restrictions than ADDING features. Push notifications already exist but with arbitrary restrictions. They don't have to "build" anything.
  - sneak 6y ago
    iOS push notifications from developers all go to Apple first, as the phones only maintain a connection to Apple. Every push notification goes through Apple servers only. They’d have to build a feature into iOS to allow it to maintain persistent connections to other notification services.

ronanyeah 6y ago

As a PWA developer I can only laugh at this comment.

sebmellen 6y ago

If you tried developing a PWA with mobile Safari support, and then reexamined this comment, I think you would quickly realize how ridiculous this sounds.

fooey 6y ago
Safari is the new IE6, and it's hamstringing the web on purpose, just like MS did back in the day.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Great analogy. I always get annoyed when I end up on caniuse and Safari sticks out like a sore thumb, along with Opera Mini (lol).

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

virtue3 6y ago

Yes Mobile Safari, where it is the -only- browser that is considered on iOS. "The WebRTC APIs have not yet been exposed to iOS browsers using WKWebView . In practice, this means that your web-based WebRTC application will only work in Safari on iOS, and not in any other browser the user may have installed (Chrome, for example), nor in an 'in-app' version of Safari.Sep 7, 2018" Im sure there are more examples.