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It sounds crazy and difficult, but I can't condemn them for it. Here in America, we're three hundred million people in a country bigger than all of Europe combi

It sounds crazy and difficult, but I can't condemn them for it. Here in America, we're three hundred million people in a country bigger than all of Europe combined. The more people that move here, the better. Our culture is built on blending other cultures together and changing from generation to generation. Denmark is a tiny country, home to just five and half million Danes. Danish culture doesn't exist anywhere else. If it disappears, it's gone forever. You have to be more careful with it. What works in one country doesn't work everywhere.

Terretta 16y ago
> The more people that move here, the better. Our culture is built on blending other cultures together and changing from generation to generation. This used to be true. It is no longer true. Now, many of those who move here fight to preserve their distinct culture, and to stay separate and apart. Thirty years ago, immigrant parents forced kids to only speak English even in the home. Newly arrived parents look for ways to have their kids speak their native language and stay within the group for their friends, saying, "I don't want them to be like Americans." Among the various immigrant communities I'm familiar with, the "melting pot" ethos is history except in rare cases.
- davidw 16y ago
  > It is no longer true. [citation needed] To me it sounds like nativist BS. Anyone who wants to get ahead in the US learns English and learns it well, it's as simple as that. In any case, I think it's good that people hang on to something. Interacting with various Italian groups in the past, when I was in the US, I'd meet middle aged people who spoke little or no Italian because their Italian parents or grandparents had not taught them. Many of them were sad that they'd never learned the language. Forcing your kids to be monolingual is a travesty and something they can never get back as adults: only as a child will you really learn to speak several languages well.
  - RuadhanMc 16y ago
    "[citation needed]" is a pretty useless comment (not to mention passive aggressive and hypocritical if you then go onto make a statement which could also use a citation).
    - davidw 16y ago
      He made an extremely broad, categoric statement with zero supporting evidence. "It is no longer true", whereas I did three things: I stated that you need to speak English to get ahead in the US. How many people that run large companies or are in the Senate or House of representatives have a poor command of English? Very few, and probably not too different from 100 or 50 years ago. I recounted an anecdote of people who felt a sense of loss at having been deprived of the opportunity to learn their ancestors' language. And I asserted that not teaching children a language so that they can 'fit in' is a very tragic thing to do, because you are making a choice for them to deprive them of something they'll never really attain on their own later in life. This is, of course, my own opinion, and needs no citation. The point of all this is that ranting about "them" not wanting to "fit in", is exactly what leads to kicking people like Gus out.
      - Terretta 16y ago
        > And I asserted that not teaching children a language so that they can 'fit in' is a very tragic thing to do Like, say, not teaching them English, when you also said "you need to speak English to get ahead in the US". The emergence of (taxpayer funded) schools where English is not the primary language, supposedly so the kids can at least get an education even though they don't know English, is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say "it's no longer true": http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/10/should-kids-be-taught-in-spanish.html http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/200... I loved this comment: I am a Swiss born, now US Citizen; in my Country of birth I had to learn 3 languages (Italian, German, French) plus latin (this was optional) and English; later I learned Spanish and Portuguese. My wife is Latin American, we live in Florida, at home we speak spanish, english and a little italian. When we moved to the US my children did not talk a word in english, but we would never accepted them not to learn the mother tongue of this Country. I belive that is importat the children keep talking the language of their parents, but they need to perfectly manage first the language of the Country they live in. Spanish is a very important language and I agree, support and encourage theaching it in every school but this as a second language. In my personal experience learning a new language or improving one you already manage, not only helps you communicate with others, but opens your cultural horizons and help understanding and tolerance among populations. Is that comment "nativist"?
danieldk 16y ago
Our culture is built on blending other cultures together and changing from generation to generation. The situation is not remotely comparable. Most immigrants to the US were mostly from a Christian (or Jewish/Christian of you prefer) tradition. Only 0.6% of the US population is Muslim (0.3% in 1990). For comparison, The Netherlands has a 6% Muslim population (an much higher is some large cities). I do not want to make a value-judgement of the Islam, but point out that some strains of Islam are highly incompatible with Dutch culture. For instance, more than half of our population is atheist or agnost, gay marriage existed for ten years, abortion and euthanasia are legal, possession/use of soft-drugs is legal, etc. Blending such different cultures is a very slow and hard process. Note: I do not have anything against any religion (including Islam), as long as it does not attempt to revert secularization. Edit: correct misuse of the word 'secularization'.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- emil0r 16y ago
  I think you can put Islam firmly in the state+religion basket. Shar'ia is the Qu'ran, the Hadiths and the Siras all neatly wrapped up for all muslims to live after. Lots of politics in there, very little actual religion. I do not believe you can ever have a clear and clean cut seperation though, unless you're willing to entertain the idea to withhold any goverment positions from worshippers.
  - danieldk 16y ago
    On your first point, that can be said of many religions. But many (most?) people realize that the holy books have been written in different times, and adopt the parts that can be integrated with modern life. You can never be completely reassured there is no ulterior motive, whether that motive stems from religion, corporations, or something else. But I do think (and see that in national politics) that many religious people are able to separate what they think is morally good from what society thinks what is morally good. Just witnessing other cultures for some time will give rise to the realization that your truth is just one truth. I am confident that cultures will eventually blend. It's just harder when the are further apart.

Terretta 16y ago

> The more people that move here, the better. Our culture is built on blending other cultures together and changing from generation to generation. This used to be true. It is no longer true. Now, many of those who move here fight to preserve their distinct culture, and to stay separate and apart. Thirty years ago, immigrant parents forced kids to only speak English even in the home. Newly arrived parents look for ways to have their kids speak their native language and stay within the group for their friends, saying, "I don't want them to be like Americans." Among the various immigrant communities I'm familiar with, the "melting pot" ethos is history except in rare cases.

davidw 16y ago
> It is no longer true. [citation needed] To me it sounds like nativist BS. Anyone who wants to get ahead in the US learns English and learns it well, it's as simple as that. In any case, I think it's good that people hang on to something. Interacting with various Italian groups in the past, when I was in the US, I'd meet middle aged people who spoke little or no Italian because their Italian parents or grandparents had not taught them. Many of them were sad that they'd never learned the language. Forcing your kids to be monolingual is a travesty and something they can never get back as adults: only as a child will you really learn to speak several languages well.
- RuadhanMc 16y ago
  "[citation needed]" is a pretty useless comment (not to mention passive aggressive and hypocritical if you then go onto make a statement which could also use a citation).
  - davidw 16y ago
    He made an extremely broad, categoric statement with zero supporting evidence. "It is no longer true", whereas I did three things: I stated that you need to speak English to get ahead in the US. How many people that run large companies or are in the Senate or House of representatives have a poor command of English? Very few, and probably not too different from 100 or 50 years ago. I recounted an anecdote of people who felt a sense of loss at having been deprived of the opportunity to learn their ancestors' language. And I asserted that not teaching children a language so that they can 'fit in' is a very tragic thing to do, because you are making a choice for them to deprive them of something they'll never really attain on their own later in life. This is, of course, my own opinion, and needs no citation. The point of all this is that ranting about "them" not wanting to "fit in", is exactly what leads to kicking people like Gus out.
    - Terretta 16y ago
      > And I asserted that not teaching children a language so that they can 'fit in' is a very tragic thing to do Like, say, not teaching them English, when you also said "you need to speak English to get ahead in the US". The emergence of (taxpayer funded) schools where English is not the primary language, supposedly so the kids can at least get an education even though they don't know English, is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say "it's no longer true": http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/2006/10/should-kids-be-taught-in-spanish.html http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/anderson.cooper.360/blog/200... I loved this comment: I am a Swiss born, now US Citizen; in my Country of birth I had to learn 3 languages (Italian, German, French) plus latin (this was optional) and English; later I learned Spanish and Portuguese. My wife is Latin American, we live in Florida, at home we speak spanish, english and a little italian. When we moved to the US my children did not talk a word in english, but we would never accepted them not to learn the mother tongue of this Country. I belive that is importat the children keep talking the language of their parents, but they need to perfectly manage first the language of the Country they live in. Spanish is a very important language and I agree, support and encourage theaching it in every school but this as a second language. In my personal experience learning a new language or improving one you already manage, not only helps you communicate with others, but opens your cultural horizons and help understanding and tolerance among populations. Is that comment "nativist"?

danieldk 16y ago

Our culture is built on blending other cultures together and changing from generation to generation. The situation is not remotely comparable. Most immigrants to the US were mostly from a Christian (or Jewish/Christian of you prefer) tradition. Only 0.6% of the US population is Muslim (0.3% in 1990). For comparison, The Netherlands has a 6% Muslim population (an much higher is some large cities). I do not want to make a value-judgement of the Islam, but point out that some strains of Islam are highly incompatible with Dutch culture. For instance, more than half of our population is atheist or agnost, gay marriage existed for ten years, abortion and euthanasia are legal, possession/use of soft-drugs is legal, etc. Blending such different cultures is a very slow and hard process. Note: I do not have anything against any religion (including Islam), as long as it does not attempt to revert secularization. Edit: correct misuse of the word 'secularization'.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
emil0r 16y ago
I think you can put Islam firmly in the state+religion basket. Shar'ia is the Qu'ran, the Hadiths and the Siras all neatly wrapped up for all muslims to live after. Lots of politics in there, very little actual religion. I do not believe you can ever have a clear and clean cut seperation though, unless you're willing to entertain the idea to withhold any goverment positions from worshippers.
- danieldk 16y ago
  On your first point, that can be said of many religions. But many (most?) people realize that the holy books have been written in different times, and adopt the parts that can be integrated with modern life. You can never be completely reassured there is no ulterior motive, whether that motive stems from religion, corporations, or something else. But I do think (and see that in national politics) that many religious people are able to separate what they think is morally good from what society thinks what is morally good. Just witnessing other cultures for some time will give rise to the realization that your truth is just one truth. I am confident that cultures will eventually blend. It's just harder when the are further apart.