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Wow - strong language. Can I ask - do you contribute meaningfully to any open source packages? Do you buy software at a significant commercial level? I've no

Wow - strong language. Can I ask - do you contribute meaningfully to any open source packages? Do you buy software at a significant commercial level? I've noticed this sort of total absolutest, outraged, scorched earth style sometimes comes from the free riders. At least in some businesses I've worked with - if you can eliminate customers that approach things in this way your staff are happier, your life more relaxed AND you make more money. A customer paying $100K/year sometimes has really competent folks who have pretty reasonable perspectives - a pleasure to work with. Someone paying $20/year can just rage and rage on forums, endless support tickets for user error issues etc, no perspective in terms of what is going on. Not sure if this has been seen in broader contexts. "the moment you even so much as assert the position of gatekeeper you're trying to create for yourselves you're dead to me." I think Redhat did the gatekeeper to 30 billion route. If you are a customer paying for support from them might be worth giving them feedback and more importantly a suggested way forward that works to pay their staff. What's weird is part of the value ADD for other companies in the tech space is the cloud account that you are railing against. Microsoft has basically forced it on their windows user base, but provisioning users now isn't so bad if you want to give someone office, just add their email to your admin page and entitle them. Boom, they can self solve even at home. Google has made their cloud account EXTREMELY valuable. The same "you are dead to me" ragers are often knee deep in google account / xbox account / netflix go anywhere accounts etc.

commoner 6y ago
You're making plenty of unfounded assumptions about the parent poster's personal character. One is not obligated to contribute to open source packages or pay for high-price contracts to provide feedback on a company's software on a public forum. (And the server portion of Snap is closed source.) Just because Microsoft and Google do worse does not mean that Canonical cannot do better.
- marmada 6y ago
  Open source contribution is not a requirement for providing feedback but people who actually understand the industry are more legitimate in most people's eyes.
  - hannasanarion 6y ago
    We're talking about the desktop computing industry, not the OS development industry. You don't need a PhD in computer science to tell a good user experience from a bad one.
  - cjaybo 6y ago
    This is a discussion about Canonical's strategy, which happens to involve technical products and services -- it is not a technical discussion. I see no reason to think that someone's software development chops would correlate with their ability to meaningfully contribute to this discussion.
blendergeek 6y ago
> The same "you are dead to me" ragers are often knee deep in google account / xbox account / netflix go anywhere accounts etc. While I am not GP, I am what of these people. I stay as far away as I can from cloud accounts unless I have the option to self host. I self host Nextcloud and I am soon going to self-host Matrix. I use F-Droid for my phone apps.
- abnercoimbre 6y ago
  > [...] and I am soon going to self-host Matrix. I self-hosted and later switched to having the Matrix staff maintain my chat server [0]. I assume this is a reasonable middle-ground between self-hosting maintenance headaches and giving up your ownership for a free Discord server. [0] https://element.io/plans-and-pricing https://element.io/plans-and-pricing
  - Cyphase 6y ago
    Especially since the software is FOSS and you can presumably migrate to another provider or back to fully self-hosting if you wanted to.
- roywashere 6y ago
  I think it is great to use F-Droid or Nextcloud if you want to! You can also use Debian or Arch if you want to. Why is it so bad that Ubuntu tries to innovate in their own way? It's not that there are no other linuxes to use?
  - rbecker 6y ago
    The complaint was that Canonical was trying to make itself a gatekeeper, not some vague "innovate in their own way".
  - blendergeek 6y ago
    And Google is free to "innovate" by bringing us the Google Play Store on top of AOSP. I will keep my distance from the proprietary walled gardens.
1_person 6y ago
> Can I ask - do you contribute meaningfully to any open source packages? Yes. > Do you buy software at a significant commercial level? No. > I think Redhat did the gatekeeper to 30 billion route. Where's the RedHat app store? Which version of RHEL is targeted at embedded devices yet requires an internet connection to install to validate your SSO credentials? Their business model is support and to my knowledge they have made no attempt to maneuver into a gatekeeping position in envy of Apple and Google's app store rents. > What's weird is part of the value ADD for other companies in the tech space is the cloud account that you are railing against. Yes, they've been told the cloud is this magic thing which allows them to abdicate administrative and operational responsibility for their infrastructure if they just pay 10x as much. And they believed it. If Canonical wants to milk that cow, good luck and godspeed. Debian awaits. I am not afraid of complexity, I know the "cloud" score, and have no interest in abdicating any authority over my personal systems or systems I am professionally responsible for. > The same "you are dead to me" ragers are often knee deep in google account / xbox account / netflix go anywhere accounts etc. I don't own a console. I don't have social media accounts. I don't subscribe to media services. I host every network, compute, and data service I consume to the extent that is practical -- moreover, they are all publicly available and free to use without advertising or donation. My condolences for the frustration you've experienced monetizing that straw man, though.
- unixhero 6y ago
  We need you and your points are totally valid.
- b5n 6y ago
  > Debian awaits Come on in, the water's fine!
- Cyphase 6y ago
  > I don't own a console. I don't have social media accounts. I don't subscribe to media services. I host every network, compute, and data service I consume to the extent that is practical -- moreover, they are all publicly available and free to use without advertising or donation. I think the key phrase here is "to the extent that is practical" — it depends on your definition of practical. I say this as someone who likely has a similar definition to you. Self-hosting, for various definitions of that, needs to be easier and more seamless for more people to want to do it. There are some products/services that aim to address this; there need to be more.
cjaybo 6y ago
So is it safe to assume that you have no meaningful response to the parent poster's criticisms of Canonical's strategy?

commoner 6y ago

You're making plenty of unfounded assumptions about the parent poster's personal character. One is not obligated to contribute to open source packages or pay for high-price contracts to provide feedback on a company's software on a public forum. (And the server portion of Snap is closed source.) Just because Microsoft and Google do worse does not mean that Canonical cannot do better.

marmada 6y ago
Open source contribution is not a requirement for providing feedback but people who actually understand the industry are more legitimate in most people's eyes.
- hannasanarion 6y ago
  We're talking about the desktop computing industry, not the OS development industry. You don't need a PhD in computer science to tell a good user experience from a bad one.
- cjaybo 6y ago
  This is a discussion about Canonical's strategy, which happens to involve technical products and services -- it is not a technical discussion. I see no reason to think that someone's software development chops would correlate with their ability to meaningfully contribute to this discussion.

blendergeek 6y ago

> The same "you are dead to me" ragers are often knee deep in google account / xbox account / netflix go anywhere accounts etc. While I am not GP, I am what of these people. I stay as far away as I can from cloud accounts unless I have the option to self host. I self host Nextcloud and I am soon going to self-host Matrix. I use F-Droid for my phone apps.

abnercoimbre 6y ago
> [...] and I am soon going to self-host Matrix. I self-hosted and later switched to having the Matrix staff maintain my chat server [0]. I assume this is a reasonable middle-ground between self-hosting maintenance headaches and giving up your ownership for a free Discord server. [0] https://element.io/plans-and-pricing https://element.io/plans-and-pricing
- Cyphase 6y ago
  Especially since the software is FOSS and you can presumably migrate to another provider or back to fully self-hosting if you wanted to.
roywashere 6y ago
I think it is great to use F-Droid or Nextcloud if you want to! You can also use Debian or Arch if you want to. Why is it so bad that Ubuntu tries to innovate in their own way? It's not that there are no other linuxes to use?
- rbecker 6y ago
  The complaint was that Canonical was trying to make itself a gatekeeper, not some vague "innovate in their own way".
- blendergeek 6y ago
  And Google is free to "innovate" by bringing us the Google Play Store on top of AOSP. I will keep my distance from the proprietary walled gardens.

1_person 6y ago

> Can I ask - do you contribute meaningfully to any open source packages? Yes. > Do you buy software at a significant commercial level? No. > I think Redhat did the gatekeeper to 30 billion route. Where's the RedHat app store? Which version of RHEL is targeted at embedded devices yet requires an internet connection to install to validate your SSO credentials? Their business model is support and to my knowledge they have made no attempt to maneuver into a gatekeeping position in envy of Apple and Google's app store rents. > What's weird is part of the value ADD for other companies in the tech space is the cloud account that you are railing against. Yes, they've been told the cloud is this magic thing which allows them to abdicate administrative and operational responsibility for their infrastructure if they just pay 10x as much. And they believed it. If Canonical wants to milk that cow, good luck and godspeed. Debian awaits. I am not afraid of complexity, I know the "cloud" score, and have no interest in abdicating any authority over my personal systems or systems I am professionally responsible for. > The same "you are dead to me" ragers are often knee deep in google account / xbox account / netflix go anywhere accounts etc. I don't own a console. I don't have social media accounts. I don't subscribe to media services. I host every network, compute, and data service I consume to the extent that is practical -- moreover, they are all publicly available and free to use without advertising or donation. My condolences for the frustration you've experienced monetizing that straw man, though.

unixhero 6y ago
We need you and your points are totally valid.
b5n 6y ago
> Debian awaits Come on in, the water's fine!
Cyphase 6y ago
> I don't own a console. I don't have social media accounts. I don't subscribe to media services. I host every network, compute, and data service I consume to the extent that is practical -- moreover, they are all publicly available and free to use without advertising or donation. I think the key phrase here is "to the extent that is practical" — it depends on your definition of practical. I say this as someone who likely has a similar definition to you. Self-hosting, for various definitions of that, needs to be easier and more seamless for more people to want to do it. There are some products/services that aim to address this; there need to be more.

cjaybo 6y ago

So is it safe to assume that you have no meaningful response to the parent poster's criticisms of Canonical's strategy?