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I really don't understand Denmark when it comes to migration issues. They make it so hard to move there for non-EU citizens that it is ridiculous. As an exampl

by mzl 16y ago

I really don't understand Denmark when it comes to migration issues. They make it so hard to move there for non-EU citizens that it is ridiculous. As an example, I know of more than one married couple with one Dane and one non-eu citizen that have been forced to live in Sweden instead of in Denmark due to troubles getting residency permits. Not letting a legitimate spouse get at least residency is just crazy.

MindTwister 16y ago
Ah, but you see, for some reason we are terribly afraid of pro forma marriages being used for residency as well as marriage being used for [Family reunification]{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_reunification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_reunification}
- yannickmahe 16y ago
  This is a common fear in a lot of western countries. I really would like to see numbers on how many fake marriages have actually been avoided by the drastic policies in place, and see how that compares to the cost of enacting these policies. I am in a relationship with a foreigner (Chinese) in a country that has very strict laws on spousal visa (France). I dread the moment after we get married when we have to go through the whole process of the government checking if this is a real marriage...
  - ThomPete 16y ago
    There are a lot and the actual 24 year rule have actually resulted in two things. 1. Fewer forced marriages 2. More muslim women are taking higher education So it has some benefits although I am not as such a huge fan of that rule.
    - psykotic 16y ago
      The problem with immigration reform is that the effects are very long term whereas politics operates on the 4-year electoral cycle. When it comes down to Denmark's basic problems with non-assimilating immigrants, you won't be able to see clear effects, beneficial or otherwise, until a full generation and a half has passed. But everyone wants to take credit here and now for what progress has been made since the last one or two elections while blaming the opposition for stagnancy or regressive tendencies. In the areas you mentioned, I wouldn't be so quick to jump to easy conclusions about cause and effect. How much of the effect is due to Muslim women, many now third generation, having become more assimilated than their male counterparts, and so that's the larger part of the explanation for why they are entering higher education in increasing numbers? Besides, this fits the general emerging pattern in the modern world of male vs female skew in higher education. I'm sure the 24-year rule had some positive effect. How much isn't clear, and it would have to be weighed against its negative effects, equally hard to measure.
MortenK 16y ago
This is indeed a very common scenario. Danish people move to Sweden for a period of time, just to be able to get a residence permit for their foreign spouse. My wife is well educated, but due to her Russian nationality, getting her to the country legally will require a 6 months detour to Sweden. This case about Gus is, sadly not a surprising story. The Danish authorities is with one hand constantly speaking about attracting foreign expertise, while pushing qualified foreigners out of the country, with the other. Just last year, we attempted to get a 1 week visa for a Ukranian developer who was supposed to visit Denmark and meet with a client. We had to pay for a plane ticket and hotel in order to be able to apply for his visa. 2 days before his scheduled arrival, we got a rejection for his visa on the grounds that he was from a "high-risk" country. Fingers crossed for Gus.
- mzl 16y ago
  Welcome to Sweden, I hope you like it here :) On a more serious note, I hope that it works out for you and your wife. Sweden is not always the best either, but at least spouses tend to get residency and AFAIK foreign expertise can typically get a work permit. Qualified migrants are such a net economic win, that I just don't see how one could actually be against it.
- psykotic 16y ago
  > This is indeed a very common scenario. Danish people move to Sweden for a period of time, just to be able to get a residence permit for their foreign spouse. My wife is well educated, but due to her Russian nationality, getting her to the country legally will require a 6 months detour to Sweden. Every time I think about this, I get so pissed off. I am a textbook case of the Danish emigrant the politicians say they want back to Denmark. I work in technology and I make a lot of money; one reason I haven't worked in Denmark since I was a teenager is that no-one there can afford me. That said, I had seriously considered returning for good when I got kids. But the way the state has been treating returning Danish emigrants with foreign wives in the last decade, I feel the country has cut people like me off entirely. I don't feel welcome and doubt I will ever return.
bruce511 16y ago
Where you see crazy, those cunning Danes see "forward planning". For some of those (now married) Danes living overseas, coming home (without bringing the wife) might seem like an incentive...
ThomPete 16y ago
As a Dane I can only say I don't understand it either. But I can give you a couple of small hints as to why it (unfortunately) is like it is. 1. Denmark has a very beneficial social welfare system. If you break your leg in Denmark visiting, we will pick up the bill through our taxes (there is talks about changing that now) If you get approved to stay here you gain access to more or less all social welfare. Some people feel that this is being misused by immigrants. When they normally talk about immigrants they talk about arabs, africans etc. And there is some truth to that. If you marry someone not from the EU they will gain access to all social welfare. Because the nineties where ruled by a government that "just took people in" it created a backlash as problems started arising with ghettoes. This among other things lead to a (european style conservative) government backed by Danish Peoples Party a political party critical towards immigrants. Since they secure the parliamentary power they have been able to get a lot of cases through. One of them being the 24 year rule which basically is meant to hinder forced marriage between muslims living in Denmark and their spouses living in a country outside of EU. This has been criticized by both left and right side of the political spectrum and is why some people move to sweden because they are much more lax about these things. Personally I am a proponent of an open borders closed boxes policy and is voting for the only true liberal (semi american style) party that exist right now (form an ideological point of view) and I am sad to see every time people like Gus get's en trouble because of the splash damage that some of these laws result in. Good thing is that Denmark is a small country and there is an election year. I am pretty sure that this will be taken up by the newspapers in Denmark and hopefully make it's way into the political debates on television. It's a perfect case for that. I am also pretty sure Gus will be able to stay. The current government simply don't want to run the risk of angering their political base.
- tjogin 16y ago
  Although, these things are true of Sweden as well.
- nanijoe 16y ago
  "Some people feel that this is being misused by immigrants. When they normally talk about immigrants they talk about arabs, africans etc. And there is some truth to that." Are you suggesting that the immigration laws were made to catch/discourage a specific group of people?
jaysonelliot 16y ago
It sounds crazy and difficult, but I can't condemn them for it. Here in America, we're three hundred million people in a country bigger than all of Europe combined. The more people that move here, the better. Our culture is built on blending other cultures together and changing from generation to generation. Denmark is a tiny country, home to just five and half million Danes. Danish culture doesn't exist anywhere else. If it disappears, it's gone forever. You have to be more careful with it. What works in one country doesn't work everywhere.
- Terretta 16y ago
  > The more people that move here, the better. Our culture is built on blending other cultures together and changing from generation to generation. This used to be true. It is no longer true. Now, many of those who move here fight to preserve their distinct culture, and to stay separate and apart. Thirty years ago, immigrant parents forced kids to only speak English even in the home. Newly arrived parents look for ways to have their kids speak their native language and stay within the group for their friends, saying, "I don't want them to be like Americans." Among the various immigrant communities I'm familiar with, the "melting pot" ethos is history except in rare cases.
  - davidw 16y ago
    > It is no longer true. [citation needed] To me it sounds like nativist BS. Anyone who wants to get ahead in the US learns English and learns it well, it's as simple as that. In any case, I think it's good that people hang on to something. Interacting with various Italian groups in the past, when I was in the US, I'd meet middle aged people who spoke little or no Italian because their Italian parents or grandparents had not taught them. Many of them were sad that they'd never learned the language. Forcing your kids to be monolingual is a travesty and something they can never get back as adults: only as a child will you really learn to speak several languages well.
    - RuadhanMc 16y ago
      "[citation needed]" is a pretty useless comment (not to mention passive aggressive and hypocritical if you then go onto make a statement which could also use a citation).
chalst 16y ago
An issue that magnifies immigration issues in the EU is that populist rhetoric tends to focus on the total immigration headline figure (ignoring emigration), not noting that many migrants are short-term, such as students, and that EU rules compel member states to allow immigration of other EU nationals to take up employment. This leaves anti-immigration politicians with powers not of the scale of the problems they conjure. I think that accurate reporting and holding to account of politicians by the media would make a big difference.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

by mzl 16y ago

MindTwister 16y ago

Ah, but you see, for some reason we are terribly afraid of pro forma marriages being used for residency as well as marriage being used for [Family reunification]{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_reunification http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_reunification}

yannickmahe 16y ago
This is a common fear in a lot of western countries. I really would like to see numbers on how many fake marriages have actually been avoided by the drastic policies in place, and see how that compares to the cost of enacting these policies. I am in a relationship with a foreigner (Chinese) in a country that has very strict laws on spousal visa (France). I dread the moment after we get married when we have to go through the whole process of the government checking if this is a real marriage...
- ThomPete 16y ago
  There are a lot and the actual 24 year rule have actually resulted in two things. 1. Fewer forced marriages 2. More muslim women are taking higher education So it has some benefits although I am not as such a huge fan of that rule.
  - psykotic 16y ago
    The problem with immigration reform is that the effects are very long term whereas politics operates on the 4-year electoral cycle. When it comes down to Denmark's basic problems with non-assimilating immigrants, you won't be able to see clear effects, beneficial or otherwise, until a full generation and a half has passed. But everyone wants to take credit here and now for what progress has been made since the last one or two elections while blaming the opposition for stagnancy or regressive tendencies. In the areas you mentioned, I wouldn't be so quick to jump to easy conclusions about cause and effect. How much of the effect is due to Muslim women, many now third generation, having become more assimilated than their male counterparts, and so that's the larger part of the explanation for why they are entering higher education in increasing numbers? Besides, this fits the general emerging pattern in the modern world of male vs female skew in higher education. I'm sure the 24-year rule had some positive effect. How much isn't clear, and it would have to be weighed against its negative effects, equally hard to measure.

MortenK 16y ago

This is indeed a very common scenario. Danish people move to Sweden for a period of time, just to be able to get a residence permit for their foreign spouse. My wife is well educated, but due to her Russian nationality, getting her to the country legally will require a 6 months detour to Sweden. This case about Gus is, sadly not a surprising story. The Danish authorities is with one hand constantly speaking about attracting foreign expertise, while pushing qualified foreigners out of the country, with the other. Just last year, we attempted to get a 1 week visa for a Ukranian developer who was supposed to visit Denmark and meet with a client. We had to pay for a plane ticket and hotel in order to be able to apply for his visa. 2 days before his scheduled arrival, we got a rejection for his visa on the grounds that he was from a "high-risk" country. Fingers crossed for Gus.

mzl 16y ago
Welcome to Sweden, I hope you like it here :) On a more serious note, I hope that it works out for you and your wife. Sweden is not always the best either, but at least spouses tend to get residency and AFAIK foreign expertise can typically get a work permit. Qualified migrants are such a net economic win, that I just don't see how one could actually be against it.
psykotic 16y ago
> This is indeed a very common scenario. Danish people move to Sweden for a period of time, just to be able to get a residence permit for their foreign spouse. My wife is well educated, but due to her Russian nationality, getting her to the country legally will require a 6 months detour to Sweden. Every time I think about this, I get so pissed off. I am a textbook case of the Danish emigrant the politicians say they want back to Denmark. I work in technology and I make a lot of money; one reason I haven't worked in Denmark since I was a teenager is that no-one there can afford me. That said, I had seriously considered returning for good when I got kids. But the way the state has been treating returning Danish emigrants with foreign wives in the last decade, I feel the country has cut people like me off entirely. I don't feel welcome and doubt I will ever return.

bruce511 16y ago

Where you see crazy, those cunning Danes see "forward planning". For some of those (now married) Danes living overseas, coming home (without bringing the wife) might seem like an incentive...

ThomPete 16y ago

As a Dane I can only say I don't understand it either. But I can give you a couple of small hints as to why it (unfortunately) is like it is. 1. Denmark has a very beneficial social welfare system. If you break your leg in Denmark visiting, we will pick up the bill through our taxes (there is talks about changing that now) If you get approved to stay here you gain access to more or less all social welfare. Some people feel that this is being misused by immigrants. When they normally talk about immigrants they talk about arabs, africans etc. And there is some truth to that. If you marry someone not from the EU they will gain access to all social welfare. Because the nineties where ruled by a government that "just took people in" it created a backlash as problems started arising with ghettoes. This among other things lead to a (european style conservative) government backed by Danish Peoples Party a political party critical towards immigrants. Since they secure the parliamentary power they have been able to get a lot of cases through. One of them being the 24 year rule which basically is meant to hinder forced marriage between muslims living in Denmark and their spouses living in a country outside of EU. This has been criticized by both left and right side of the political spectrum and is why some people move to sweden because they are much more lax about these things. Personally I am a proponent of an open borders closed boxes policy and is voting for the only true liberal (semi american style) party that exist right now (form an ideological point of view) and I am sad to see every time people like Gus get's en trouble because of the splash damage that some of these laws result in. Good thing is that Denmark is a small country and there is an election year. I am pretty sure that this will be taken up by the newspapers in Denmark and hopefully make it's way into the political debates on television. It's a perfect case for that. I am also pretty sure Gus will be able to stay. The current government simply don't want to run the risk of angering their political base.

tjogin 16y ago
Although, these things are true of Sweden as well.
nanijoe 16y ago
"Some people feel that this is being misused by immigrants. When they normally talk about immigrants they talk about arabs, africans etc. And there is some truth to that." Are you suggesting that the immigration laws were made to catch/discourage a specific group of people?

jaysonelliot 16y ago

It sounds crazy and difficult, but I can't condemn them for it. Here in America, we're three hundred million people in a country bigger than all of Europe combined. The more people that move here, the better. Our culture is built on blending other cultures together and changing from generation to generation. Denmark is a tiny country, home to just five and half million Danes. Danish culture doesn't exist anywhere else. If it disappears, it's gone forever. You have to be more careful with it. What works in one country doesn't work everywhere.

Terretta 16y ago
> The more people that move here, the better. Our culture is built on blending other cultures together and changing from generation to generation. This used to be true. It is no longer true. Now, many of those who move here fight to preserve their distinct culture, and to stay separate and apart. Thirty years ago, immigrant parents forced kids to only speak English even in the home. Newly arrived parents look for ways to have their kids speak their native language and stay within the group for their friends, saying, "I don't want them to be like Americans." Among the various immigrant communities I'm familiar with, the "melting pot" ethos is history except in rare cases.
- davidw 16y ago
  > It is no longer true. [citation needed] To me it sounds like nativist BS. Anyone who wants to get ahead in the US learns English and learns it well, it's as simple as that. In any case, I think it's good that people hang on to something. Interacting with various Italian groups in the past, when I was in the US, I'd meet middle aged people who spoke little or no Italian because their Italian parents or grandparents had not taught them. Many of them were sad that they'd never learned the language. Forcing your kids to be monolingual is a travesty and something they can never get back as adults: only as a child will you really learn to speak several languages well.
  - RuadhanMc 16y ago
    "[citation needed]" is a pretty useless comment (not to mention passive aggressive and hypocritical if you then go onto make a statement which could also use a citation).

chalst 16y ago

An issue that magnifies immigration issues in the EU is that populist rhetoric tends to focus on the total immigration headline figure (ignoring emigration), not noting that many migrants are short-term, such as students, and that EU rules compel member states to allow immigration of other EU nationals to take up employment. This leaves anti-immigration politicians with powers not of the scale of the problems they conjure. I think that accurate reporting and holding to account of politicians by the media would make a big difference.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]