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"Though I think of Jira more like a spreadsheet. Very useful once upon a time. Outdated now. Static. Manual." This statement is so blatantly wrong that it actu

by tensor 6y ago

"Though I think of Jira more like a spreadsheet. Very useful once upon a time. Outdated now. Static. Manual." This statement is so blatantly wrong that it actually put me off even reading the rest. Spreadsheets are stronger than they've ever been and are never going away, let alone being "outdated." Sure there are products that claim to be "the next spreadsheet" but most of those actually serve a different purpose: no-code app dev.

pm90 6y ago
If you’re going to make judgements so easily you’re going to miss out on a lot of good ideas that people put out there.
- nine_k 6y ago
  Such a beginning does set some expectations of competence, unfortunately :(
- Clubber 6y ago
  I would say 90% of tech ideas that area floated out there are awful and I'm being pretty generous with that number.
  - cecja 6y ago
    Time to put yours in writing so we finally hit that 100%.
  - loeg 6y ago
    I also tripped on this sentence. But the article is not bad if you charitably read "spreadsheet" as "spreadsheets for bug/project tracking."
GordonS 6y ago
Jira is a hot mess - I'm genuinely offended in behalf of spreadsheets that the OP would make that comparison.
uchman 6y ago
Yea spreadsheets were useful before and even more useful now. Agreed, they could be misused but what can't be misused ?
- yishaibeeri 6y ago
  Everything can be misused, but abusing spreadsheets is an art form
modeless 6y ago
I read this as talking about a specific spreadsheet, not the general concept of spreadsheets. Like a specific excel file someone made long ago but it hasn't been updated in a long time and it's difficult to figure out if its up to date or not. It could be worded better.
hector_vasquez 6y ago
I assumed the author really meant that using a spreadsheet for project tracking is outdated, static, and manual. Which I agree with. But spreadsheets in general of course are tremendously useful!
- xmprt 6y ago
  I've seen spreadsheets used for project tracking and in general I think they're versatile enough that they're useful tools. What's a better alternative? Jira and other proprietary solutions sound good in theory but I feel like in practice they're just expensive and time consuming since developers and managers need to learn a new tool that might not even have the features you're looking for.
yodelshady 6y ago
Funny, from non-dev roles I'd probably put spreadsheets as the the platform for "no-code app dev". Or rather, the platform for "this is the only b*d tool IT have allowed me to run, and no, I don't have a spare year for them to scope out what could be bodged by a couple of VBA scripts, and doing so would very obviously make my job better. So, for good or evil, it's going to be bodged with a couple of VBA scripts." I feel like there's a lesson there, though I could be wrong. (Also not sure if that counts as "no-code") Oh, and seconding the general consensus that websites that flash irrelevant notifications at me are pretty much an instant, hard "no".
- dijit 6y ago
  Never underestimate the art of the bodge, it's quite literally keeping the world ticking over, perfection has a place but it is rare and fleeting. I saw a good talk on it from Tom Scott some time ago[0] which I think is relevant. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIFE7h3m40U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIFE7h3m40U
commandlinefan 6y ago
I think he means a spreadsheet for the purposes of tracking software project progress. Although honestly, if you have a spreadsheet that's longer-lived than a few hours, you should probably evaluate whether you're adopting the best approach.
- MattGaiser 6y ago
  If you are not a developer, spreadsheets are a tool that lets you get similar capability in many cases. It is basically no-code for accountants, portfolio managers, and non software engineers.
  - commandlinefan 6y ago
    Cool. If you have a spreadsheet that's longer-lived than a few hours, you should probably evaluate whether you're adopting the best approach. You can replace a blown fuse with a penny, too, but you should probably call an electrician instead.
    - xmprt 6y ago
      Building/buying a new tool for a job that a spreadsheet can do just as easily because of your hard rule on long-lived spreadsheets feels like a huge waste of company resources. Your penny analogy is contrived because a penny isn't remotely close to working like a fuse and a mistake can be deadly. No one is going to die if you use a spreadsheet instead of Jira for project tracking.
    - pillefitz 6y ago
      Excel + VBA is insanely powerful, and except for the IDE a surprisingly good dev experience. I would have never thought if I my client hadn't insisted..
    - httpsterio 6y ago
      > Cool. If you have a spreadsheet that's longer-lived than a few hours, you should probably evaluate whether you're adopting the best approach. You can replace a blown fuse with a penny, too, but you should probably call an electrician instead. or just replace the fuse with a fuse? If you have a spreadsheet and it works for you, why spend time getting a programmer to "do it properly"? one of the largest Finnish waste disposal companies has a no-code product that runs in excel basically and rakes them millions a year.
tmountain 6y ago
I agree. Spreadsheets are an incredible tool that have stood the test of time. Taking that declaration one sentence farther, they are one of the greatest success stories regarding bringing functional programming into the business world in a way that emphasizes simplicity.
sufyanadam 6y ago
Pro-tip for engineers on spreadsheets: Org-mode & emacs is a great tool for the random spreadsheet you might want to scratch out to compare something or get some running totals or do cost-benefit analysis or whatever. Check out https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-spreadsheet-lisp-formulas.html https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-spreadsheet-lisp-... and https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/org.html#The-spreadsheet https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/org.html... I recently used it to find out how much a certain company owes me based on a monthly guarantee obligation they have continuously fallen short of . I've also used it to do comparisons and find out the maximum I can save on a refinance from different lenders etc, whether I should lease or purchase a car etc.. Very useful!
- radegast 6y ago
  Or you know, just use Excel like a normal person. :) Why bother hacking spreadsheets in a text editor from the 70s...
killface 6y ago
I'm convinced that every single business out there eventually gets run from an Excel spreadsheet. At the end of the day, they're just rolling up rollups all the way to the top, where some guy is looking at Scenario A vs Scenario B in Excel

by tensor 6y ago

pm90 6y ago

If you’re going to make judgements so easily you’re going to miss out on a lot of good ideas that people put out there.

nine_k 6y ago
Such a beginning does set some expectations of competence, unfortunately :(
Clubber 6y ago
I would say 90% of tech ideas that area floated out there are awful and I'm being pretty generous with that number.
- cecja 6y ago
  Time to put yours in writing so we finally hit that 100%.
- loeg 6y ago
  I also tripped on this sentence. But the article is not bad if you charitably read "spreadsheet" as "spreadsheets for bug/project tracking."

GordonS 6y ago

Jira is a hot mess - I'm genuinely offended in behalf of spreadsheets that the OP would make that comparison.

uchman 6y ago

Yea spreadsheets were useful before and even more useful now. Agreed, they could be misused but what can't be misused ?

yishaibeeri 6y ago
Everything can be misused, but abusing spreadsheets is an art form

modeless 6y ago

I read this as talking about a specific spreadsheet, not the general concept of spreadsheets. Like a specific excel file someone made long ago but it hasn't been updated in a long time and it's difficult to figure out if its up to date or not. It could be worded better.

hector_vasquez 6y ago

I assumed the author really meant that using a spreadsheet for project tracking is outdated, static, and manual. Which I agree with. But spreadsheets in general of course are tremendously useful!

xmprt 6y ago
I've seen spreadsheets used for project tracking and in general I think they're versatile enough that they're useful tools. What's a better alternative? Jira and other proprietary solutions sound good in theory but I feel like in practice they're just expensive and time consuming since developers and managers need to learn a new tool that might not even have the features you're looking for.

yodelshady 6y ago

Funny, from non-dev roles I'd probably put spreadsheets as the the platform for "no-code app dev". Or rather, the platform for "this is the only b*d tool IT have allowed me to run, and no, I don't have a spare year for them to scope out what could be bodged by a couple of VBA scripts, and doing so would very obviously make my job better. So, for good or evil, it's going to be bodged with a couple of VBA scripts." I feel like there's a lesson there, though I could be wrong. (Also not sure if that counts as "no-code") Oh, and seconding the general consensus that websites that flash irrelevant notifications at me are pretty much an instant, hard "no".

dijit 6y ago
Never underestimate the art of the bodge, it's quite literally keeping the world ticking over, perfection has a place but it is rare and fleeting. I saw a good talk on it from Tom Scott some time ago[0] which I think is relevant. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIFE7h3m40U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIFE7h3m40U

commandlinefan 6y ago

I think he means a spreadsheet for the purposes of tracking software project progress. Although honestly, if you have a spreadsheet that's longer-lived than a few hours, you should probably evaluate whether you're adopting the best approach.

MattGaiser 6y ago
If you are not a developer, spreadsheets are a tool that lets you get similar capability in many cases. It is basically no-code for accountants, portfolio managers, and non software engineers.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  Cool. If you have a spreadsheet that's longer-lived than a few hours, you should probably evaluate whether you're adopting the best approach. You can replace a blown fuse with a penny, too, but you should probably call an electrician instead.
  - xmprt 6y ago
    Building/buying a new tool for a job that a spreadsheet can do just as easily because of your hard rule on long-lived spreadsheets feels like a huge waste of company resources. Your penny analogy is contrived because a penny isn't remotely close to working like a fuse and a mistake can be deadly. No one is going to die if you use a spreadsheet instead of Jira for project tracking.
  - pillefitz 6y ago
    Excel + VBA is insanely powerful, and except for the IDE a surprisingly good dev experience. I would have never thought if I my client hadn't insisted..
  - httpsterio 6y ago
    > Cool. If you have a spreadsheet that's longer-lived than a few hours, you should probably evaluate whether you're adopting the best approach. You can replace a blown fuse with a penny, too, but you should probably call an electrician instead. or just replace the fuse with a fuse? If you have a spreadsheet and it works for you, why spend time getting a programmer to "do it properly"? one of the largest Finnish waste disposal companies has a no-code product that runs in excel basically and rakes them millions a year.

tmountain 6y ago

I agree. Spreadsheets are an incredible tool that have stood the test of time. Taking that declaration one sentence farther, they are one of the greatest success stories regarding bringing functional programming into the business world in a way that emphasizes simplicity.

sufyanadam 6y ago

Pro-tip for engineers on spreadsheets: Org-mode & emacs is a great tool for the random spreadsheet you might want to scratch out to compare something or get some running totals or do cost-benefit analysis or whatever. Check out https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-spreadsheet-lisp-formulas.html https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tutorials/org-spreadsheet-lisp-... and https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/org.html#The-spreadsheet https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/org.html... I recently used it to find out how much a certain company owes me based on a monthly guarantee obligation they have continuously fallen short of . I've also used it to do comparisons and find out the maximum I can save on a refinance from different lenders etc, whether I should lease or purchase a car etc.. Very useful!

radegast 6y ago
Or you know, just use Excel like a normal person. :) Why bother hacking spreadsheets in a text editor from the 70s...

killface 6y ago

I'm convinced that every single business out there eventually gets run from an Excel spreadsheet. At the end of the day, they're just rolling up rollups all the way to the top, where some guy is looking at Scenario A vs Scenario B in Excel