5 ms·

The main reason I use an iPhone is that it doesn’t allow side loading out side of development applications and has a curated closed store. I want an ecosystem

The main reason I use an iPhone is that it doesn’t allow side loading out side of development applications and has a curated closed store. I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on including knowing that little to no one can side load a malicious application onto the device. I’m also very well aware of the fact that while Apple scalps developers it’s also the reason why my devices get security updates for 6 years while Google can’t provide updates after 2.

Fargren 6y ago
> I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on including knowing that little to no one can side load a malicious application onto the device. I don't understand this, can you explain why? As long as you don't sideload on your own phone, why would having the option be a problem?
- ascagnel_ 6y ago
  When you're stuck being the "computer person" in a family, it means you need to manage things like people's laptops that have somehow associated .exe files with MS Word or a game suddenly starting in the background and making a bunch of noise on Android (I've dealt with these first-hand). There's a market for devices that give power users some access, but not so much they can cause problems. Right now, I somewhat selfishly suggest iPhones/iPads to family members, because they live near enough to Apple stores that I don't have to be the one supporting them, and that the devices are harder to put into a state where the unpredictable starts happening.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Chromebooks also seem to fill this need fairly well—I know a lot of people in your situation choose them for family members. This appears to work despite the fact that you can unlock a Chromebook's bootloader and do whatever you like.
  - Barrin92 6y ago
    >When you're stuck being the "computer person" in a family, it means you need to manage things like people's laptops that have somehow associated .exe files with MS Word or a game suddenly starting in the background and making a bunch of noise on Android (I've dealt with these first-hand). The things you can do with the phone are already more dangerous and hazardous than say, manually approved, developer-mode sideloading. Following this logic, why is the phone even allowed to get phone calls from non-Apple approved numbers?, or mail from non-Apple approved email addresses? Like at what point does this logic actually stop, because for someone who somehow manages to install malware after having to tap on some arcane menu seven times in a row every service on that phone is a minefield
- pb7 6y ago
  Presumably because app developers might choose not to go through the curated App Store route and in turn, cut corners or do shady things just because they can. Imagine if Tik Tok was only available to side load -- they'll scrape whatever they want/can and teens aren't going to risk FOMOing for that alone.
  - Fargren 6y ago
    I don't think that would happen. You can sideload into Android but as far as I know no one sideloads Tik Tok, you just get it through the store. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I just don't see it as a reason for not owning a device that allows sideloading (unless you mean that one could oppose sideloading in principle and boycott devices that allow it?)
    - pb7 6y ago
      Well yeah, there's no current reason to sideload it because it's available on the store. But imagine they wanted to do something that Google wouldn't allow -- now they can do that thing and offer the app for sideloading only. If the US ban reasons are valid and Google is forced to remove it from the store for those reasons, then sideloading TikTok would be this exact situation I'm describing. -- Let me restate it like this. Company A wants access to iOS app market. Their app does X, Y, and Z. Z is frowned upon but X and Y are pretty valuable. In a world with no rules (i.e. sideloading), they'll do X, Y, and Z and consumers will have to put up with Z. In a world with rules (i.e. App Store), they will have to omit Z even though it's good for business because that's the only way they can do business in X and Y.
  - tomp 6y ago
    TikTok already scrapes whatever they want. How does Apple’s review process help? Also, sideloading doesn’t necessarily mean there’s no access controls or permissions on iOS any more. Though Apple might have to step up security and fixore bugs.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  Because having that options undermines the trust model of the device I am using and more importantly of the devices of others I communicate with. And yes I do have different policies for sharing info with people on Android vs iPhones.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
They can, if they exploit an iOS vulnerability, as has been done many times in the past. Is this so different from using vulnerabilities to bypass a permission prompt?
- dogma1138 6y ago
  Yes because on Android it’s much easier and also requires much less complicated/expensive exploits abuse including leveraging the users themselves.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
aweb 6y ago
Sorry but I'm not sure you understand how sideloading works on Android. You have to enable it explicitly for any app you want to sideload from (eg. your browser for a downloaded app, or an alternative app store like F-Droid). Afterwards, every app installation still needs to be manually approved and thus cannot be done hidden in the background. Seems pretty safe to me while still allowing more freedom to power users.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > You have to enable it explicitly for any app you want to sideload from Problem is e.g. Facebook will immediately require side loading so they can install all manner of spyware that wouldn’t make it through the App Store’s vetting process.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    No they won't. Facebook is in the Play Store on Android, and they used the Windows 10 Store up until they abandoned their desktop client. They want the largest user-base possible, which means they want finding and installing their app to be as frictionless as possible.
    - dfee 6y ago
      Here’s a link to the Onavo app from Facebook https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onavo#Privacy_concerns https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onavo#Privacy_concerns
      - onli 6y ago
        No mention of sideloading in that link, instead it mentions a Play Store and an App Store listing. It's almost as if there is a lot of dangerous crap in those stores as well...
        ipython 6y ago
        Expand the “Facebook research” section.
gameswithgo 6y ago
>I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on I've been on the Internet a long time and can't say that closed stores have led to any kind of quality of experience improvement for me. the apple store is full of misleading, garbage apps trying to exploit people.

Fargren 6y ago

> I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on including knowing that little to no one can side load a malicious application onto the device. I don't understand this, can you explain why? As long as you don't sideload on your own phone, why would having the option be a problem?

ascagnel_ 6y ago
When you're stuck being the "computer person" in a family, it means you need to manage things like people's laptops that have somehow associated .exe files with MS Word or a game suddenly starting in the background and making a bunch of noise on Android (I've dealt with these first-hand). There's a market for devices that give power users some access, but not so much they can cause problems. Right now, I somewhat selfishly suggest iPhones/iPads to family members, because they live near enough to Apple stores that I don't have to be the one supporting them, and that the devices are harder to put into a state where the unpredictable starts happening.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Chromebooks also seem to fill this need fairly well—I know a lot of people in your situation choose them for family members. This appears to work despite the fact that you can unlock a Chromebook's bootloader and do whatever you like.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  >When you're stuck being the "computer person" in a family, it means you need to manage things like people's laptops that have somehow associated .exe files with MS Word or a game suddenly starting in the background and making a bunch of noise on Android (I've dealt with these first-hand). The things you can do with the phone are already more dangerous and hazardous than say, manually approved, developer-mode sideloading. Following this logic, why is the phone even allowed to get phone calls from non-Apple approved numbers?, or mail from non-Apple approved email addresses? Like at what point does this logic actually stop, because for someone who somehow manages to install malware after having to tap on some arcane menu seven times in a row every service on that phone is a minefield
pb7 6y ago
Presumably because app developers might choose not to go through the curated App Store route and in turn, cut corners or do shady things just because they can. Imagine if Tik Tok was only available to side load -- they'll scrape whatever they want/can and teens aren't going to risk FOMOing for that alone.
- Fargren 6y ago
  I don't think that would happen. You can sideload into Android but as far as I know no one sideloads Tik Tok, you just get it through the store. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I just don't see it as a reason for not owning a device that allows sideloading (unless you mean that one could oppose sideloading in principle and boycott devices that allow it?)
  - pb7 6y ago
    Well yeah, there's no current reason to sideload it because it's available on the store. But imagine they wanted to do something that Google wouldn't allow -- now they can do that thing and offer the app for sideloading only. If the US ban reasons are valid and Google is forced to remove it from the store for those reasons, then sideloading TikTok would be this exact situation I'm describing. -- Let me restate it like this. Company A wants access to iOS app market. Their app does X, Y, and Z. Z is frowned upon but X and Y are pretty valuable. In a world with no rules (i.e. sideloading), they'll do X, Y, and Z and consumers will have to put up with Z. In a world with rules (i.e. App Store), they will have to omit Z even though it's good for business because that's the only way they can do business in X and Y.
- tomp 6y ago
  TikTok already scrapes whatever they want. How does Apple’s review process help? Also, sideloading doesn’t necessarily mean there’s no access controls or permissions on iOS any more. Though Apple might have to step up security and fixore bugs.
dogma1138 6y ago
Because having that options undermines the trust model of the device I am using and more importantly of the devices of others I communicate with. And yes I do have different policies for sharing info with people on Android vs iPhones.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

They can, if they exploit an iOS vulnerability, as has been done many times in the past. Is this so different from using vulnerabilities to bypass a permission prompt?

dogma1138 6y ago
Yes because on Android it’s much easier and also requires much less complicated/expensive exploits abuse including leveraging the users themselves.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

aweb 6y ago

Sorry but I'm not sure you understand how sideloading works on Android. You have to enable it explicitly for any app you want to sideload from (eg. your browser for a downloaded app, or an alternative app store like F-Droid). Afterwards, every app installation still needs to be manually approved and thus cannot be done hidden in the background. Seems pretty safe to me while still allowing more freedom to power users.

JumpCrisscross 6y ago
> You have to enable it explicitly for any app you want to sideload from Problem is e.g. Facebook will immediately require side loading so they can install all manner of spyware that wouldn’t make it through the App Store’s vetting process.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  No they won't. Facebook is in the Play Store on Android, and they used the Windows 10 Store up until they abandoned their desktop client. They want the largest user-base possible, which means they want finding and installing their app to be as frictionless as possible.
  - dfee 6y ago
    Here’s a link to the Onavo app from Facebook https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onavo#Privacy_concerns https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onavo#Privacy_concerns
    - onli 6y ago
      No mention of sideloading in that link, instead it mentions a Play Store and an App Store listing. It's almost as if there is a lot of dangerous crap in those stores as well...
      - ipython 6y ago
        Expand the “Facebook research” section.

gameswithgo 6y ago

>I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on I've been on the Internet a long time and can't say that closed stores have led to any kind of quality of experience improvement for me. the apple store is full of misleading, garbage apps trying to exploit people.