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helge9210 6y ago
I did notice how you replaced annexation with occupation. There will always be part of population that is less smart (for various reasons). They'll always vote for those parties.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  There are plenty of smart people who might disagree with you as well.
LegitShady 6y ago
Because after decades of trying to make peace and seeing the situation get worse the general population of Israel no longer believes in feel good leftism without some real world solutions. It's all well and good to be anti occupation but then you see rocket production and launching capacity and Gaza and have no interest in seeing that elsewhere.
- tunesmith 6y ago
  But what does that have to do with settlements? How is a settlement a real world solution? How does a settlement prevent rocket production?
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    Letting Hamas have control of Gaza created a territory controlled by Hamas that produces weapons to the detriment of its people, that aims weapons at cities anywhere near it, and who teach violent extremism in their united nations funded schools (where hamas keeps winning elections for leadership too). Many people in Israel will not accept a similar situation for the west bank, and will vehemently reject leftists without actual solutions. The settlements are a different faction than people who might vote for leftists if they had demonstrable solutions.
    - tunesmith 6y ago
      But that's a justification for creating settlements anywhere Hamas is, which is all of Palestine. "We must build settlements on contested land, because Hamas is building rockets, because we are on contested land, because we must build settlements on contested land, because Hamas is building rockets..."
      - LegitShady 6y ago
        Again the faction that is pro settlement is not the kind that will vote in realistic left wing governments if they appear. The issue is not just that faction exists it is that there is no solution from the left in Israel that stands basic scrutiny for centrist to think about voting them in. If there is no long term solution in view then people will act now to put themselves in the strongest position if something changes. Land swaps in future deals etc are only made stronger, and the faction not interested in giving it away are appeased. Also Hamas has political control of Gaza but not the west bank. There will be no future where Israel accepts Hamas control of the west bank. If you cannot integrate this into your thinking then think about the US making peace with Isis, etc because some Syrians picked them.
- newacct583 6y ago
  The problem with that logic is that it's not sustainable. Yes, terrible things happen in Gaza (not so much the west bank) absent a working government and/or occupying force. At the same time, we're now going on the fourth generation of residents of these territories who are born, live and die in a no-man's land. They aren't citizens of any nation, they can vote for no government, they can't travel, they can't start a business or hold anything but the most basic property. And neither could their parents or grandparents. And neither will their kids. The thread of rocket production is plausibly enough to justify a temporary occupation while a better government can be constructed, etc... But the six day war was more than a half century ago. At some point the excuses have to end.
  - LegitShady 6y ago
    Gaza has a working government run by Hamas. Both Hamas and the pa in the west bank have failed to hold their own elections and that is their fault not Israel's - they can run elections etc. Their kids are being taught in school to hate Israel and that Jews are evil funded by the United Nations. Every generation will get more extreme under this tutelage. There is not the threat of rocket production so much as there are both rockets and rocket production already. You talk about the six day war but forget Hamas shooting hundreds of rockeslts a day into Israel much more recently than that. It's ok to say say its unsustainable. What is your solution ? Israelis are tired of hearing that it's unsustainable without a solution. That's why the left isn't getting elected. They have no solution, not even to what is going on today.
    - newacct583 6y ago
      > What is your solution ? Israelis are tired of hearing that it's unsustainable without a solution. I assure you the rest of the world is getting tired as well. But at the end of the day, this isn't my problem to solve. It's Israel's. Eventually, the world will get tired enough to act. It has in the past. The reason it isn't a crisis for the rest of the world now is fundamentally down to an odd quirk of the way voting demographics work a continent away in the US. And... that actually looks very stable. But eventually something will shift (hell, a Great Collapse of american influence seems not entirely unlikely at this point), and Israel will feel pressure it's been insulated from for the last 53+ years. That's what "unsustainable" means.
yoavm 6y ago
Because people consider more things when they choose a political party other than their views regarding the occupation? Most people in Israel wake up in the morning and their first thought isn't "what should we do about this occupation thing". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#Public_opinion_in_Israel_and_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#Public_opin...

I did notice how you replaced annexation with occupation. There will always be part of population that is less smart (for various reasons). They'll always vote for those parties.

LegitShady 6y ago
There are plenty of smart people who might disagree with you as well.

LegitShady 6y ago

Because after decades of trying to make peace and seeing the situation get worse the general population of Israel no longer believes in feel good leftism without some real world solutions. It's all well and good to be anti occupation but then you see rocket production and launching capacity and Gaza and have no interest in seeing that elsewhere.

tunesmith 6y ago
But what does that have to do with settlements? How is a settlement a real world solution? How does a settlement prevent rocket production?
- LegitShady 6y ago
  Letting Hamas have control of Gaza created a territory controlled by Hamas that produces weapons to the detriment of its people, that aims weapons at cities anywhere near it, and who teach violent extremism in their united nations funded schools (where hamas keeps winning elections for leadership too). Many people in Israel will not accept a similar situation for the west bank, and will vehemently reject leftists without actual solutions. The settlements are a different faction than people who might vote for leftists if they had demonstrable solutions.
  - tunesmith 6y ago
    But that's a justification for creating settlements anywhere Hamas is, which is all of Palestine. "We must build settlements on contested land, because Hamas is building rockets, because we are on contested land, because we must build settlements on contested land, because Hamas is building rockets..."
    - LegitShady 6y ago
      Again the faction that is pro settlement is not the kind that will vote in realistic left wing governments if they appear. The issue is not just that faction exists it is that there is no solution from the left in Israel that stands basic scrutiny for centrist to think about voting them in. If there is no long term solution in view then people will act now to put themselves in the strongest position if something changes. Land swaps in future deals etc are only made stronger, and the faction not interested in giving it away are appeased. Also Hamas has political control of Gaza but not the west bank. There will be no future where Israel accepts Hamas control of the west bank. If you cannot integrate this into your thinking then think about the US making peace with Isis, etc because some Syrians picked them.
newacct583 6y ago
The problem with that logic is that it's not sustainable. Yes, terrible things happen in Gaza (not so much the west bank) absent a working government and/or occupying force. At the same time, we're now going on the fourth generation of residents of these territories who are born, live and die in a no-man's land. They aren't citizens of any nation, they can vote for no government, they can't travel, they can't start a business or hold anything but the most basic property. And neither could their parents or grandparents. And neither will their kids. The thread of rocket production is plausibly enough to justify a temporary occupation while a better government can be constructed, etc... But the six day war was more than a half century ago. At some point the excuses have to end.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  Gaza has a working government run by Hamas. Both Hamas and the pa in the west bank have failed to hold their own elections and that is their fault not Israel's - they can run elections etc. Their kids are being taught in school to hate Israel and that Jews are evil funded by the United Nations. Every generation will get more extreme under this tutelage. There is not the threat of rocket production so much as there are both rockets and rocket production already. You talk about the six day war but forget Hamas shooting hundreds of rockeslts a day into Israel much more recently than that. It's ok to say say its unsustainable. What is your solution ? Israelis are tired of hearing that it's unsustainable without a solution. That's why the left isn't getting elected. They have no solution, not even to what is going on today.
  - newacct583 6y ago
    > What is your solution ? Israelis are tired of hearing that it's unsustainable without a solution. I assure you the rest of the world is getting tired as well. But at the end of the day, this isn't my problem to solve. It's Israel's. Eventually, the world will get tired enough to act. It has in the past. The reason it isn't a crisis for the rest of the world now is fundamentally down to an odd quirk of the way voting demographics work a continent away in the US. And... that actually looks very stable. But eventually something will shift (hell, a Great Collapse of american influence seems not entirely unlikely at this point), and Israel will feel pressure it's been insulated from for the last 53+ years. That's what "unsustainable" means.

yoavm 6y ago

Because people consider more things when they choose a political party other than their views regarding the occupation? Most people in Israel wake up in the morning and their first thought isn't "what should we do about this occupation thing". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#Public_opinion_in_Israel_and_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#Public_opin...