9 ms·

I'm scared of that though. Although on one end I would like to buy my kindle books straight from the app and play xcloud games, I'm thinking of the dodgier comp

by gutnor 6y ago

I'm scared of that though. Although on one end I would like to buy my kindle books straight from the app and play xcloud games, I'm thinking of the dodgier companies. Right now I have little to worry about when I leave my kid playing a game, all the payment need to go through Apple or at least the offending app will not stay up for too long. I want Apple to be forced to come up with a fairer solution (eg: same api, but different payment provider) rather than being strong-armed into getting rid of the current protection from dodgy apps abusing dark ux pattern.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
All Apple has to do to fix this is allow sideloading. They don't need to change the App Store's rules—they can make them more stringent, actually—and you can set up your child's phone to block non-App-Store installations. Heck, Epic would probably cave and accept the cost to keep Fortnite in the App Store; they tried to go around Google Play, and it seemingly didn't work out.
- alexeldeib 6y ago
  From the original article, this also sidesteps google play.
  - celticninja 6y ago
    I don't think that Google has the same requirements as apple, vis a vis, all payments need to go through apple app store, which includes subscriptions or coin purchases.
    - minhazm 6y ago
      They both have very similar policies. Why do you think Epic took Fortnite off of the Play store in the first place?
    - dogma1138 6y ago
      They do, the only difference is that unlike Apple Google just takes the money and gives the users nothing in return.
      - fomine3 6y ago
        Actually Google provides reword program (Play Points) but Apple doesn't.
        dogma1138 6y ago
        I’ll take 6+ years worth of updates for my devices instead, Google drops support even to their own Pixel line within 2 years.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Sure, I just don't think Epic has a very strong argument there. I mean, who knows what lawmakers will think, but if I was the one to decide, I would tell Epic tough luck. Consumers can choose to side-step the Play Store with a few taps. iOS users would need to throw out their phones.
- gutnor 6y ago
  The problem with that is that it is all or nothing. The milder approach I had in mind was that apps require you to register an account outside the app (like amazon) but the purchase is initiated inside the app and outside Apple api. At the beginning that will be easy to simply not register and not use games that require registration. But well, micro-transaction started that way and nowadays all the major player do it that way. Platform like XCloud that bundle various games from various studio will be used, and that basically mean you have a single app in your iPhone that can download a variety of content, all outside the control of Apple. I'm not an idiot, I will whitelist and use the tool available in said platform, but that's one more thing to care about. One problem for which Apple just worked for me and won't anymore.
  - NeutronStar 6y ago
    > The problem with that is that it is all or nothing. Unlike current Apple policies?
  - judge2020 6y ago
    If i'm not mistaken, Apple doesn't even have a "separate wallet" requirement like Consoles do where, if you have a cross-platform game with virtual currency, you have to keep currency purchases made on one platform separate from currency purchases made on competitor's platform - Eg. in Fortnite, purchasing $10 of VBucks on the Nintendo Switch means you have to spend those VBucks in the in-game store while on the Switch, you can't go to your PC and spend them or combine them with VBucks you've purchased from Epic directly.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  The main reason I use an iPhone is that it doesn’t allow side loading out side of development applications and has a curated closed store. I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on including knowing that little to no one can side load a malicious application onto the device. I’m also very well aware of the fact that while Apple scalps developers it’s also the reason why my devices get security updates for 6 years while Google can’t provide updates after 2.
  - Fargren 6y ago
    > I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on including knowing that little to no one can side load a malicious application onto the device. I don't understand this, can you explain why? As long as you don't sideload on your own phone, why would having the option be a problem?
    - ascagnel_ 6y ago
      When you're stuck being the "computer person" in a family, it means you need to manage things like people's laptops that have somehow associated .exe files with MS Word or a game suddenly starting in the background and making a bunch of noise on Android (I've dealt with these first-hand). There's a market for devices that give power users some access, but not so much they can cause problems. Right now, I somewhat selfishly suggest iPhones/iPads to family members, because they live near enough to Apple stores that I don't have to be the one supporting them, and that the devices are harder to put into a state where the unpredictable starts happening.
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        Chromebooks also seem to fill this need fairly well—I know a lot of people in your situation choose them for family members. This appears to work despite the fact that you can unlock a Chromebook's bootloader and do whatever you like.
      - Barrin92 6y ago
        >When you're stuck being the "computer person" in a family, it means you need to manage things like people's laptops that have somehow associated .exe files with MS Word or a game suddenly starting in the background and making a bunch of noise on Android (I've dealt with these first-hand). The things you can do with the phone are already more dangerous and hazardous than say, manually approved, developer-mode sideloading. Following this logic, why is the phone even allowed to get phone calls from non-Apple approved numbers?, or mail from non-Apple approved email addresses? Like at what point does this logic actually stop, because for someone who somehow manages to install malware after having to tap on some arcane menu seven times in a row every service on that phone is a minefield
owenwil 6y ago
Wha? There are ways around this. Apple could just build sanctioned support for specific payment gateways (e.g Stripe/Adyen) and subject them to rules as a part of the app review process in the same way they are now. It doesn't need to be binary; it's just that they want to paint the picture as if it'll be a wild west of payments if they have to change that, even though they have the power to build safer alternatives.
- buzzy_hacker 6y ago
  That’d be an improvement over a monopoly, but still an oligopoly.
  - strbean 6y ago
    That presumes a small number of options. They could just support a large number of processors and we're all good.
cortesoft 6y ago
If your kids tried to pay through an alternative payment system, they would have to enter their credit card info.
Hokusai 6y ago
> I'm thinking of the dodgier companies. Right now I have little to worry about when I leave my kid playing a game, all the payment need to go through Apple or at least the offending app will not stay up for too long. Nothing stops dodgier companies to ask your kid a credit card number. If you trust an app and it charges you in a dodgy way, you can claim that charge with your credit company. On-line transactions work in computers, it is not different in a phone. Phones are just computers nowadays. A tech company that is your bank, your ID, your messaging system, your location system,... is 1984 level of scary.
- closeparen 6y ago
  The App Store review process stops it. To dispute charges that were indeed made by a member of your household, you usually have to file a police report against them. The method of paying for things online by shared secret numbers is insane. Phones permit much more reasonable payments architectures, since they can sign transactions with their TPMs instead of spraying your credit card number everywhere. We should see phones replace credit card entry even for transactions started on desktops.
  - Hokusai 6y ago
    > We should see phones replace credit card entry even for transactions started on desktops. The two banks I use already have this, as many other banks. I already have to trust my bank, they literally have my money. I pay my taxes and sign them thru my bank, I do transfers, I pay subscriptions, etc. everything with my bank signature. Apple is what is stopping more apps to use my bank signature to pay directly thru it. Apple is stopping more secure banking to able to take a piece of the cake. > The App Store review process stops it. No, that is not how apple review process works. Many content is server-side. Pop-ups are send from the server to your game/app. Games and app have browsers that can render anything and communicate anywhere. The App review process may catch some obvious things, but it cannot know what an app connected to the internet is going to do. Even malware, that should be way easier to detect and stop , way easier than to stop a pop-up asking for your credit card, pass thru their system: https://www.wandera.com/ios-trojan-malware/ https://www.wandera.com/ios-trojan-malware/
MiguelHudnandez 6y ago
Amazon has already stepped over the line a little bit with their Audible app. Months ago they made it possible to redeem your credits in-app instead of prompting you to use a web browser to do that.
ffggvv 6y ago
no offense but your child rearing worries shouldn’t force some rule on every consenting adult. maybe watch them or control what they do or apple can build a child mode. but it’s not an excuse to limit our freedoms
tekkk 6y ago
Those who would give up freedom over safety something something.. Should every Apple user have to be tied down to Apple Store because kids and grannies can be dummies when downloading apps? Surely it should be easy to put parental controls and block all the dodgy apps and so forth. So things can stay the same for those who wish to remain in the App Store while having the ability to exercise your personal freedom to decide which apps you want to install on a device you own and paid good money for.
m463 6y ago
I would like to play games I compiled (without asking permission)
danmur 6y ago
Payments for whatever (eg Amazon) can still go through the web browser can't they? What stops kids doing that?

by gutnor 6y ago

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

All Apple has to do to fix this is allow sideloading. They don't need to change the App Store's rules—they can make them more stringent, actually—and you can set up your child's phone to block non-App-Store installations. Heck, Epic would probably cave and accept the cost to keep Fortnite in the App Store; they tried to go around Google Play, and it seemingly didn't work out.

alexeldeib 6y ago
From the original article, this also sidesteps google play.
- celticninja 6y ago
  I don't think that Google has the same requirements as apple, vis a vis, all payments need to go through apple app store, which includes subscriptions or coin purchases.
  - minhazm 6y ago
    They both have very similar policies. Why do you think Epic took Fortnite off of the Play store in the first place?
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    They do, the only difference is that unlike Apple Google just takes the money and gives the users nothing in return.
    - fomine3 6y ago
      Actually Google provides reword program (Play Points) but Apple doesn't.
      - dogma1138 6y ago
        I’ll take 6+ years worth of updates for my devices instead, Google drops support even to their own Pixel line within 2 years.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Sure, I just don't think Epic has a very strong argument there. I mean, who knows what lawmakers will think, but if I was the one to decide, I would tell Epic tough luck. Consumers can choose to side-step the Play Store with a few taps. iOS users would need to throw out their phones.
gutnor 6y ago
The problem with that is that it is all or nothing. The milder approach I had in mind was that apps require you to register an account outside the app (like amazon) but the purchase is initiated inside the app and outside Apple api. At the beginning that will be easy to simply not register and not use games that require registration. But well, micro-transaction started that way and nowadays all the major player do it that way. Platform like XCloud that bundle various games from various studio will be used, and that basically mean you have a single app in your iPhone that can download a variety of content, all outside the control of Apple. I'm not an idiot, I will whitelist and use the tool available in said platform, but that's one more thing to care about. One problem for which Apple just worked for me and won't anymore.
- NeutronStar 6y ago
  > The problem with that is that it is all or nothing. Unlike current Apple policies?
- judge2020 6y ago
  If i'm not mistaken, Apple doesn't even have a "separate wallet" requirement like Consoles do where, if you have a cross-platform game with virtual currency, you have to keep currency purchases made on one platform separate from currency purchases made on competitor's platform - Eg. in Fortnite, purchasing $10 of VBucks on the Nintendo Switch means you have to spend those VBucks in the in-game store while on the Switch, you can't go to your PC and spend them or combine them with VBucks you've purchased from Epic directly.
dogma1138 6y ago
The main reason I use an iPhone is that it doesn’t allow side loading out side of development applications and has a curated closed store. I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on including knowing that little to no one can side load a malicious application onto the device. I’m also very well aware of the fact that while Apple scalps developers it’s also the reason why my devices get security updates for 6 years while Google can’t provide updates after 2.
- Fargren 6y ago
  > I want an ecosystem that works and I can rely on including knowing that little to no one can side load a malicious application onto the device. I don't understand this, can you explain why? As long as you don't sideload on your own phone, why would having the option be a problem?
  - ascagnel_ 6y ago
    When you're stuck being the "computer person" in a family, it means you need to manage things like people's laptops that have somehow associated .exe files with MS Word or a game suddenly starting in the background and making a bunch of noise on Android (I've dealt with these first-hand). There's a market for devices that give power users some access, but not so much they can cause problems. Right now, I somewhat selfishly suggest iPhones/iPads to family members, because they live near enough to Apple stores that I don't have to be the one supporting them, and that the devices are harder to put into a state where the unpredictable starts happening.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      Chromebooks also seem to fill this need fairly well—I know a lot of people in your situation choose them for family members. This appears to work despite the fact that you can unlock a Chromebook's bootloader and do whatever you like.
    - Barrin92 6y ago
      >When you're stuck being the "computer person" in a family, it means you need to manage things like people's laptops that have somehow associated .exe files with MS Word or a game suddenly starting in the background and making a bunch of noise on Android (I've dealt with these first-hand). The things you can do with the phone are already more dangerous and hazardous than say, manually approved, developer-mode sideloading. Following this logic, why is the phone even allowed to get phone calls from non-Apple approved numbers?, or mail from non-Apple approved email addresses? Like at what point does this logic actually stop, because for someone who somehow manages to install malware after having to tap on some arcane menu seven times in a row every service on that phone is a minefield

owenwil 6y ago

Wha? There are ways around this. Apple could just build sanctioned support for specific payment gateways (e.g Stripe/Adyen) and subject them to rules as a part of the app review process in the same way they are now. It doesn't need to be binary; it's just that they want to paint the picture as if it'll be a wild west of payments if they have to change that, even though they have the power to build safer alternatives.

buzzy_hacker 6y ago
That’d be an improvement over a monopoly, but still an oligopoly.
- strbean 6y ago
  That presumes a small number of options. They could just support a large number of processors and we're all good.

cortesoft 6y ago

If your kids tried to pay through an alternative payment system, they would have to enter their credit card info.

Hokusai 6y ago

> I'm thinking of the dodgier companies. Right now I have little to worry about when I leave my kid playing a game, all the payment need to go through Apple or at least the offending app will not stay up for too long. Nothing stops dodgier companies to ask your kid a credit card number. If you trust an app and it charges you in a dodgy way, you can claim that charge with your credit company. On-line transactions work in computers, it is not different in a phone. Phones are just computers nowadays. A tech company that is your bank, your ID, your messaging system, your location system,... is 1984 level of scary.

closeparen 6y ago
The App Store review process stops it. To dispute charges that were indeed made by a member of your household, you usually have to file a police report against them. The method of paying for things online by shared secret numbers is insane. Phones permit much more reasonable payments architectures, since they can sign transactions with their TPMs instead of spraying your credit card number everywhere. We should see phones replace credit card entry even for transactions started on desktops.
- Hokusai 6y ago
  > We should see phones replace credit card entry even for transactions started on desktops. The two banks I use already have this, as many other banks. I already have to trust my bank, they literally have my money. I pay my taxes and sign them thru my bank, I do transfers, I pay subscriptions, etc. everything with my bank signature. Apple is what is stopping more apps to use my bank signature to pay directly thru it. Apple is stopping more secure banking to able to take a piece of the cake. > The App Store review process stops it. No, that is not how apple review process works. Many content is server-side. Pop-ups are send from the server to your game/app. Games and app have browsers that can render anything and communicate anywhere. The App review process may catch some obvious things, but it cannot know what an app connected to the internet is going to do. Even malware, that should be way easier to detect and stop , way easier than to stop a pop-up asking for your credit card, pass thru their system: https://www.wandera.com/ios-trojan-malware/ https://www.wandera.com/ios-trojan-malware/

MiguelHudnandez 6y ago

Amazon has already stepped over the line a little bit with their Audible app. Months ago they made it possible to redeem your credits in-app instead of prompting you to use a web browser to do that.

ffggvv 6y ago

no offense but your child rearing worries shouldn’t force some rule on every consenting adult. maybe watch them or control what they do or apple can build a child mode. but it’s not an excuse to limit our freedoms

tekkk 6y ago

Those who would give up freedom over safety something something.. Should every Apple user have to be tied down to Apple Store because kids and grannies can be dummies when downloading apps? Surely it should be easy to put parental controls and block all the dodgy apps and so forth. So things can stay the same for those who wish to remain in the App Store while having the ability to exercise your personal freedom to decide which apps you want to install on a device you own and paid good money for.

m463 6y ago

I would like to play games I compiled (without asking permission)

danmur 6y ago

Payments for whatever (eg Amazon) can still go through the web browser can't they? What stops kids doing that?