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Apple, Microsoft, and Google: * Forbid alternative browser engines on their platform. * Bundle their browser in a leading operating system. * Use their massi

Apple, Microsoft, and Google: * Forbid alternative browser engines on their platform. * Bundle their browser in a leading operating system. * Use their massive Web properties to drive downloads of their own browser.

gamblor956 6y ago
Microsoft and Google allow alternative browser engines. Apple does not.
- dreamcompiler 6y ago
  On IOS. On a Mac you can run any browser engine you want.
  - leeoniya 6y ago
    i wonder when the other shoe will drop. maybe as part of the ARM and iOS/macOS consolidation. things are much more likely to go the iOS route given it's already ARM.
    - the_other 6y ago
      Apple will lose their entire Mac audience if this happens. Slowly, but surely.
    - alwillis 6y ago
      i wonder when the other shoe will drop. maybe as part of the ARM and iOS/macOS consolidation. There’s no other shoe. There's no known technical reason why all the major browsers shouldn't be available natively when ARM Macs start shipping in a few months.
      - perryizgr8 6y ago
        There's no technical reason for iOS to not support alternative browsers from the start. It's not about technical reasons.
        alwillis 6y ago
        There's no technical reason for iOS to not support alternative browsers from the start. Why would Apple allow other browser engines that are slower, less power efficient and don't respect user’s privacy at least as much as Webkit to run natively on iOS? Apple continues to add features to block ads from tracking users across the web and to lessen the impact of fingerprinting by trackers. Certainly Google has no interest in adhering to these principles if it were able to run natively on iOS—they're the only major browser on macOS that allows unchecked fingerprinting and ad tracking.
        seabrookmx 6y ago
        > Why would Apple allow There's your problem. Apple doesn't own the device.. I do. Apple can "recommend" I use Safari all they want (not unlike MS does with Edge) but if I own the device I should have the right to run any software I want. Full stop.
        ncmncm 6y ago
        That is what you think. It is not what Apple thinks. Which do you suppose wins more often?
        rvense 6y ago
        Exactly. I don't care about the size of the screen. It's my damn computer, I should be allowed to put whatever software I want on it.
- dlivingston 6y ago
  Only within iOS. The average person downloading Firefox for iPhone doesn’t know (or care) if it’s built on WebKit or Gecko.
- amenod 6y ago
  They both fight with every dirty dark UX pattern they can get away with. Not much difference in practice. If anything, at the moment Apple is doing more for the web diversity than anyone else. They have a non-negligeable market share and can force Google to abandon at least the most outrageous plans for Chrome. Not that they are angels, of course... It's a pity that Mozilla failed to find a better revenue source that would include keeping Firefox alive.
- malnourish 6y ago
  Can you use alternative browsers on Chromebooks (sans rooting)?
  - seabrookmx 6y ago
    Technically, yes. Crostini is a WSL-like VM layer that allows you to run arbitrary Linux apps, including Firefox and Epiphany on ChromeOS. Practically speaking though, this is all command-line heavy and developer centric. Your typical Chromebook user can't/won't. I'm actually grappling with this issue right now.. I'm a long time Firefox user and picked up a Lenovo Duet ChromeOS device to serve as a replacement for my cheap Android tablet. Turns out.. I really like the form factor and am using it a lot (typing on it right now!). But the Firefox Android apps are a pretty terrible experience and since I don't plan on using this for dev, I don't want to jump through all the crostini hoops. So here I am, using Chrome..
toastal 6y ago
And in the case of Apple, who killed Flash to help the open web, have knee-capped PWA support on their mobile platforms to force developers to leave their cut of sales through the App Store. It's pretty anti-competitive. I believe Valve's been a bit on edge (no pun intended), about Microsoft forcing games through their store as well. Mozilla was helping us out of these walled gardens. There's even the SSB support they've been working for PWAs on desktop. Instead of bundling Electron, you could likely just target ESR Firefox and your app icon just launches this URL (this is what Peppermint OS does). Instead now you have Chrome and all of these Electron apps all competing for who can chew up the most RAM.
- toastal 6y ago
  It would seem even the Chrome Web Store is being met with frustration too https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/google-chrome-web-store-developers-struggle-issues/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/google-chrome-web-st...
- coldtea 6y ago
  >And in the case of Apple, who killed Flash to help the open web, have knee-capped PWA support on their mobile platforms to force developers to leave their cut of sales through the App Store. Knee-capped? For years Safari had the best PWA support compared to Android. And at first it even asked developers to make PWAs, and they said "no, we want native apps".
  - toastal 6y ago
    There's no push notification support, no background sync, offline support isn't good, they're wiping storage after 7 days, etc. There isn't a defined spec sure, but they idea is to give Web Apps somewhat equal footing with native apps while having potential be more secure being tied to browser sandboxing, extensions, settings, etc. This doesn't appear to be in Apple's goals given those missing features. You can see devs begging for push notifications for years--and it works on desktop Safari. At work, this is the specific feature we want above everything else in our PWA experience. Apple's been reluctant to say the least to allow repackaged Web Apps in their store, but can you blame developers when features like this are missing but present?
liujy 6y ago
> Bundle their browser in a leading operating system. What’s the alternative here? I can’t imagine opening up a new computer and not having some kind of web browser pre-installed.
- estebank 6y ago
  https://www.blog.google/around-the-globe/google-europe/presenting-search-app-and-browser-options-android-users-europe/ https://www.blog.google/around-the-globe/google-europe/prese... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu
- esperent 6y ago
  It takes about 2 minutes to download and install a browser. Most operating systems already expect an internet connection when you're installing them, it would be easy to add a screen saying "select which browser you want" as part of the process.
  - nitrogen 6y ago
    For slow connections, some of that space currently allocated to bloatware should be reassigned to browser choice.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

gamblor956 6y ago

Microsoft and Google allow alternative browser engines. Apple does not.

dreamcompiler 6y ago
On IOS. On a Mac you can run any browser engine you want.
- leeoniya 6y ago
  i wonder when the other shoe will drop. maybe as part of the ARM and iOS/macOS consolidation. things are much more likely to go the iOS route given it's already ARM.
  - the_other 6y ago
    Apple will lose their entire Mac audience if this happens. Slowly, but surely.
  - alwillis 6y ago
    i wonder when the other shoe will drop. maybe as part of the ARM and iOS/macOS consolidation. There’s no other shoe. There's no known technical reason why all the major browsers shouldn't be available natively when ARM Macs start shipping in a few months.
    - perryizgr8 6y ago
      There's no technical reason for iOS to not support alternative browsers from the start. It's not about technical reasons.
      - alwillis 6y ago
        There's no technical reason for iOS to not support alternative browsers from the start. Why would Apple allow other browser engines that are slower, less power efficient and don't respect user’s privacy at least as much as Webkit to run natively on iOS? Apple continues to add features to block ads from tracking users across the web and to lessen the impact of fingerprinting by trackers. Certainly Google has no interest in adhering to these principles if it were able to run natively on iOS—they're the only major browser on macOS that allows unchecked fingerprinting and ad tracking.
        seabrookmx 6y ago
        > Why would Apple allow There's your problem. Apple doesn't own the device.. I do. Apple can "recommend" I use Safari all they want (not unlike MS does with Edge) but if I own the device I should have the right to run any software I want. Full stop.
        ncmncm 6y ago
        That is what you think. It is not what Apple thinks. Which do you suppose wins more often?
      - rvense 6y ago
        Exactly. I don't care about the size of the screen. It's my damn computer, I should be allowed to put whatever software I want on it.
dlivingston 6y ago
Only within iOS. The average person downloading Firefox for iPhone doesn’t know (or care) if it’s built on WebKit or Gecko.
amenod 6y ago
They both fight with every dirty dark UX pattern they can get away with. Not much difference in practice. If anything, at the moment Apple is doing more for the web diversity than anyone else. They have a non-negligeable market share and can force Google to abandon at least the most outrageous plans for Chrome. Not that they are angels, of course... It's a pity that Mozilla failed to find a better revenue source that would include keeping Firefox alive.
malnourish 6y ago
Can you use alternative browsers on Chromebooks (sans rooting)?
- seabrookmx 6y ago
  Technically, yes. Crostini is a WSL-like VM layer that allows you to run arbitrary Linux apps, including Firefox and Epiphany on ChromeOS. Practically speaking though, this is all command-line heavy and developer centric. Your typical Chromebook user can't/won't. I'm actually grappling with this issue right now.. I'm a long time Firefox user and picked up a Lenovo Duet ChromeOS device to serve as a replacement for my cheap Android tablet. Turns out.. I really like the form factor and am using it a lot (typing on it right now!). But the Firefox Android apps are a pretty terrible experience and since I don't plan on using this for dev, I don't want to jump through all the crostini hoops. So here I am, using Chrome..

toastal 6y ago

And in the case of Apple, who killed Flash to help the open web, have knee-capped PWA support on their mobile platforms to force developers to leave their cut of sales through the App Store. It's pretty anti-competitive. I believe Valve's been a bit on edge (no pun intended), about Microsoft forcing games through their store as well. Mozilla was helping us out of these walled gardens. There's even the SSB support they've been working for PWAs on desktop. Instead of bundling Electron, you could likely just target ESR Firefox and your app icon just launches this URL (this is what Peppermint OS does). Instead now you have Chrome and all of these Electron apps all competing for who can chew up the most RAM.

toastal 6y ago
It would seem even the Chrome Web Store is being met with frustration too https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/google-chrome-web-store-developers-struggle-issues/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/google-chrome-web-st...
coldtea 6y ago
>And in the case of Apple, who killed Flash to help the open web, have knee-capped PWA support on their mobile platforms to force developers to leave their cut of sales through the App Store. Knee-capped? For years Safari had the best PWA support compared to Android. And at first it even asked developers to make PWAs, and they said "no, we want native apps".
- toastal 6y ago
  There's no push notification support, no background sync, offline support isn't good, they're wiping storage after 7 days, etc. There isn't a defined spec sure, but they idea is to give Web Apps somewhat equal footing with native apps while having potential be more secure being tied to browser sandboxing, extensions, settings, etc. This doesn't appear to be in Apple's goals given those missing features. You can see devs begging for push notifications for years--and it works on desktop Safari. At work, this is the specific feature we want above everything else in our PWA experience. Apple's been reluctant to say the least to allow repackaged Web Apps in their store, but can you blame developers when features like this are missing but present?

liujy 6y ago

> Bundle their browser in a leading operating system. What’s the alternative here? I can’t imagine opening up a new computer and not having some kind of web browser pre-installed.

estebank 6y ago
https://www.blog.google/around-the-globe/google-europe/presenting-search-app-and-browser-options-android-users-europe/ https://www.blog.google/around-the-globe/google-europe/prese... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BrowserChoice.eu
esperent 6y ago
It takes about 2 minutes to download and install a browser. Most operating systems already expect an internet connection when you're installing them, it would be easy to add a screen saying "select which browser you want" as part of the process.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  For slow connections, some of that space currently allocated to bloatware should be reassigned to browser choice.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]