8 ms·

Finally someone stands up to the monopolists!

by devit 6y ago

superkuh 6y ago
Right, another monopolist trying to fill their garden. Epic is literally buying the companies behind long established games, removing game support for alternative OSes, and eventually only allowing access from "the epic store". No matter who wins between Epic and Apple human people lose. They're both walled garden monopolists.
- gsich 6y ago
  Epic has no "walled garden". The PC is an open platform. An iPhone is not. If I don't like the Epic store, I can install software from other sources just fine. Good luck with that on iOS.
  - rurounijones 6y ago
    > I can install software from other sources just fine Not when Epic paid the devs to make them exclusive (either permanently or time-limited): https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/Epic-games-store-exclusives https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/Epic-games-store-exclusives Unless you are referring to warez as the other source, of coursse
    - gsich 6y ago
      I can install software from other sources just fine. Doesn't have to be the same software. But why is having the Epic store such a problem?
      - chrismeller 6y ago
        He wasn’t saying the store was a problem, he was saying that having the store with titles you have an exclusive license to is a problem.
        gsich 6y ago
        >No matter who wins between Epic and Apple human people lose. They're both walled garden monopolists. This was the comparison, which is obviously wrong. Apple has a monopoly and a walled garden. Neither does Epic have a monopoly with their store, nor a walled garden, as the PC is not a walled garden. So, no. There was nothing said about exclusives.
      - rurounijones 6y ago
        You seem to be moving the goalposts here. > Epic has no "walled garden". Epic is explicitly a walled garden regarding the games it has paid to be exclusive within that walled gardren (Permanently or temporarily). > The PC is an open platform. An iPhone is not. You are conflating hardware / software here. PC hardware is an open platform. The software is running on it is not necessarily. You could be running Linux or Windows for example. (Of which only Windows has an official Epic Games Launcher client). > If I don't like the Epic store, I can install software from other sources just fine. We are talking about the context of games so "software" means a particular game of which there is only one. Not "Any random note-taking application". Therefore, in the context of games, no you cannot get that software (game) legally from any other source if Epic paid for it to be exclusive.
        MattRix 6y ago
        That is not what a walled garden is. If the developers have a choice of where to sell their software, and choose to make it exclusive, that is totally fine! It's their software, they can choose how it is sold. It's only a walled garden if there is no other option to distribute your games but with that company... so either an enforced monopoly (Apple) or de-facto monopoly (Steam, but this is arguable).
        rurounijones 6y ago
        Replied to sibling comment in a bit more detail but I think we are looking at it form different viewpoints. "customers" vs "developers"
        DivisionSol 6y ago
        Developers have a choice when it comes to Apple as well. They make their software, and they chose to sell it on Android and iOS devices. Is it just because Apple is “big” and has cultivated themselves a valuable customer base the reason they are now... mandatory? No one is forcing you to release on iOS.
        fenomas 6y ago
        > Epic is explicitly a walled garden regarding the games it has paid to be exclusive That's not what walled garden means. PC game developers can sell their games any number of ways - if they choose one way instead of others that's up to them. For iOS there's no choice - either you sell through Apple or you don't support iOS. Hence "walled garden". In short: if you have to pay people to come into your garden, it's not walled. ;)
  - ziddoap 6y ago
    Epic has signed a significant number of games as Epic Games exclusives [0], making them not part of the open platform but only available via the Epic Store. How is that not a walled garden? [0]https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/Epic-games-store-exclusives https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/Epic-games-store-exclusives
    - meheleventyone 6y ago
      I think most if not all are time limited exclusives.
    - fenomas 6y ago
      > How is that not a walled garden? Huh? When people talk about iOS being a walled garden they're referring to the fact that iOS apps can only be bought and sold via Apple. Consumers on that platform have no alternatives, and if Apple doesn't want a given app sold then it can't be bought. EGS exclusives are nothing like that - anybody can sell PC games any way they like. If some particular developer chooses to sell their game via EGS and not other stores, that's up to the developer. It's not a walled garden if people can enter and exit any time they like.
- u10 6y ago
  For a monopolist they provide pretty compelling terms compared to Steam. If anything they are a healthy competitor to Steam, not only for developers but for consumers as well.
  - chrismeller 6y ago
    Isn’t that usually how monopolies start? They don’t lure you in with the slogan “you can only get it from us now”... The competition today is great, but they could easily become the next App Store tomorrow. I don’t personally have a problem with Apple taking a cut - they are doing work, after all, but I think it should be more along the lines of covering the transaction fees and less “we’re taking a third of your hard work”.
    - u10 6y ago
      The competition is broken, Steam still has a large majority of the marketshare, and they abuse it just like Apple does. Taking a cut is fine, but 30% margin is unconscionable and I applaud anyone that tries to break that paradigm.
      - judge2020 6y ago
        Steam's monopoly is very different from Apple's since they only operate on already-open platforms. You can easily distribute your x86 game via any other store or your own launcher/website with little issue (only having to deal with the Oligopoly that is EV Code Signing, which you still might need to do while on Steam/Epic/etc). On Apple's platform, you have to go through them no matter what, making it impossible to put an app on iOS devices without their approval.
      - La1n 6y ago
        >they abuse it just like Apple does. But on my PC I can buy games at other places too, I just prefer Steam due to convenience. It's very different than having to buy your games on a platform from someone specific.
  - tadzik_ 6y ago
- qppo 6y ago
  To be fair to Epic, they are/were offering developers a better deal than Steam. And they've done far more for gaming over the past decade than Valve, which hasn't been able to successfully innovate in the last two.
  - nottorp 6y ago
    However, they're not offering ME a better deal. Let's see: - games aren't cheaper on the Epic store, in spite of the allegedly smaller cut the store is supposed to take - they're Windows only (and here comes the China reference, they only know about Windows in there) - their store still doesn't have a shopping cart (i may not be current on this)... reeks of incompetence? Can you trust them with your credit card info? - they have bribed developers to give them exclusivity, preventing me to get the games on the store of my choice. - btw the above means Steam but also GoG. You people calling out Steam for being a monopoly, how many titles have you bought on GoG? - Epic's only meaningful contribution to gaming since Unreal II is... a free to play arena shooter? Is that even a game? I can't afford free to play games, sorry. Do you really think that if the Epic Store somehow manages to "win", it will be better for us customers in any way? It's sad that the only entity fighting Apple's monopoly is... another would be monopolist.
    - u10 6y ago
      >games aren't cheaper on the Epic store, in spite of the allegedly smaller cut the store is supposed to take They are literally handing out free games, Total War: Troy, a brand new game, its free today >they're Windows only (and here comes the China reference, they only know about Windows in there) Games will not have first class support for linux for years to come, this is not indicative of the linux platform, simply that the market is tiny and developer time is better spent on supporting platforms that are widely used. >they have bribed developers to give them exclusivity, preventing me to get the games on the store of my choice. Seems to be a pretty simple calculus to me. Epic is willing to pay developers and publishers to have exclusive access to their games. Steam takes a 30% cut, Epic takes 12%. I would take that deal in a heartbeat. >btw the above means Steam but also GoG. You people calling out Steam for being a monopoly, how many titles have you bought on GoG? plenty, they offer a useful service by providing older games with support for modern OS. They have their niche within the ecosystem but they are by and large not competing with Steam >Epic's only meaningful contribution to gaming since Unreal II is... a free to play arena shooter? Is that even a game? I can't afford free to play games, sorry. Besides Fortnite being an economic and cultural phenomenon, they are very generous with providing access to their Unreal Engine software, even cutting the cost of using it until they the developers are actually generating revenue.
- Reedx 6y ago
  > Epic is literally buying the companies behind long established games, removing game support for alternative OSes, and eventually only allowing access from "the epic store". What are the examples where that happened? They rarely buy game companies. With Psyonix they are making Rocket League free to play and won't be able to download it on Steam, but will still be on a bunch of platforms.
  - nottorp 6y ago
    Not sure about buying established companies, but they bribed quite a few succesful kickstarter projects to go Epic exclusive for at least a year, including one I backed and had high hopes for.
  - notamy 6y ago
    Rocket League; if I remember correctly the Linux support was dropped and it was intended to no longer be on Steam. Unsure where it stands now as it's been a while since I actively followed that game.
    - justwalt 6y ago
      It will be playable but not purchasable on Steam starting on the 31st of this month.
- balfirevic 6y ago
  > They're both walled garden monopolists. Is "monopolist" now just used to mean "big"?
- binthere 6y ago
  No, you're wrong. The key difference you're missing is that Epic is not forcing any developers to do anything. They can do whatever they want, but IF and only IF they want some funding they need to sign a deal that benefits both parties. Gamers don't lose anything because they can still play the game, if anything it's better because now the game developer was able to polish or finish a game with the additional funding they have.

Finally someone stands up to the monopolists!

by devit 6y ago

Finally someone stands up to the monopolists!

Right, another monopolist trying to fill their garden. Epic is literally buying the companies behind long established games, removing game support for alternative OSes, and eventually only allowing access from "the epic store". No matter who wins between Epic and Apple human people lose. They're both walled garden monopolists.

gsich 6y ago
Epic has no "walled garden". The PC is an open platform. An iPhone is not. If I don't like the Epic store, I can install software from other sources just fine. Good luck with that on iOS.
- rurounijones 6y ago
  > I can install software from other sources just fine Not when Epic paid the devs to make them exclusive (either permanently or time-limited): https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/Epic-games-store-exclusives https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/Epic-games-store-exclusives Unless you are referring to warez as the other source, of coursse
  - gsich 6y ago
    I can install software from other sources just fine. Doesn't have to be the same software. But why is having the Epic store such a problem?
    - chrismeller 6y ago
      He wasn’t saying the store was a problem, he was saying that having the store with titles you have an exclusive license to is a problem.
      - gsich 6y ago
        >No matter who wins between Epic and Apple human people lose. They're both walled garden monopolists. This was the comparison, which is obviously wrong. Apple has a monopoly and a walled garden. Neither does Epic have a monopoly with their store, nor a walled garden, as the PC is not a walled garden. So, no. There was nothing said about exclusives.
    - rurounijones 6y ago
      You seem to be moving the goalposts here. > Epic has no "walled garden". Epic is explicitly a walled garden regarding the games it has paid to be exclusive within that walled gardren (Permanently or temporarily). > The PC is an open platform. An iPhone is not. You are conflating hardware / software here. PC hardware is an open platform. The software is running on it is not necessarily. You could be running Linux or Windows for example. (Of which only Windows has an official Epic Games Launcher client). > If I don't like the Epic store, I can install software from other sources just fine. We are talking about the context of games so "software" means a particular game of which there is only one. Not "Any random note-taking application". Therefore, in the context of games, no you cannot get that software (game) legally from any other source if Epic paid for it to be exclusive.
      - MattRix 6y ago
        That is not what a walled garden is. If the developers have a choice of where to sell their software, and choose to make it exclusive, that is totally fine! It's their software, they can choose how it is sold. It's only a walled garden if there is no other option to distribute your games but with that company... so either an enforced monopoly (Apple) or de-facto monopoly (Steam, but this is arguable).
        rurounijones 6y ago
        Replied to sibling comment in a bit more detail but I think we are looking at it form different viewpoints. "customers" vs "developers"
        DivisionSol 6y ago
        Developers have a choice when it comes to Apple as well. They make their software, and they chose to sell it on Android and iOS devices. Is it just because Apple is “big” and has cultivated themselves a valuable customer base the reason they are now... mandatory? No one is forcing you to release on iOS.
      - fenomas 6y ago
        > Epic is explicitly a walled garden regarding the games it has paid to be exclusive That's not what walled garden means. PC game developers can sell their games any number of ways - if they choose one way instead of others that's up to them. For iOS there's no choice - either you sell through Apple or you don't support iOS. Hence "walled garden". In short: if you have to pay people to come into your garden, it's not walled. ;)
- ziddoap 6y ago
  Epic has signed a significant number of games as Epic Games exclusives [0], making them not part of the open platform but only available via the Epic Store. How is that not a walled garden? [0]https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/Epic-games-store-exclusives https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/Epic-games-store-exclusives
  - meheleventyone 6y ago
    I think most if not all are time limited exclusives.
  - fenomas 6y ago
    > How is that not a walled garden? Huh? When people talk about iOS being a walled garden they're referring to the fact that iOS apps can only be bought and sold via Apple. Consumers on that platform have no alternatives, and if Apple doesn't want a given app sold then it can't be bought. EGS exclusives are nothing like that - anybody can sell PC games any way they like. If some particular developer chooses to sell their game via EGS and not other stores, that's up to the developer. It's not a walled garden if people can enter and exit any time they like.
u10 6y ago
For a monopolist they provide pretty compelling terms compared to Steam. If anything they are a healthy competitor to Steam, not only for developers but for consumers as well.
- chrismeller 6y ago
  Isn’t that usually how monopolies start? They don’t lure you in with the slogan “you can only get it from us now”... The competition today is great, but they could easily become the next App Store tomorrow. I don’t personally have a problem with Apple taking a cut - they are doing work, after all, but I think it should be more along the lines of covering the transaction fees and less “we’re taking a third of your hard work”.
  - u10 6y ago
    The competition is broken, Steam still has a large majority of the marketshare, and they abuse it just like Apple does. Taking a cut is fine, but 30% margin is unconscionable and I applaud anyone that tries to break that paradigm.
    - judge2020 6y ago
      Steam's monopoly is very different from Apple's since they only operate on already-open platforms. You can easily distribute your x86 game via any other store or your own launcher/website with little issue (only having to deal with the Oligopoly that is EV Code Signing, which you still might need to do while on Steam/Epic/etc). On Apple's platform, you have to go through them no matter what, making it impossible to put an app on iOS devices without their approval.
    - La1n 6y ago
      >they abuse it just like Apple does. But on my PC I can buy games at other places too, I just prefer Steam due to convenience. It's very different than having to buy your games on a platform from someone specific.
- tadzik_ 6y ago
qppo 6y ago
To be fair to Epic, they are/were offering developers a better deal than Steam. And they've done far more for gaming over the past decade than Valve, which hasn't been able to successfully innovate in the last two.
- nottorp 6y ago
  However, they're not offering ME a better deal. Let's see: - games aren't cheaper on the Epic store, in spite of the allegedly smaller cut the store is supposed to take - they're Windows only (and here comes the China reference, they only know about Windows in there) - their store still doesn't have a shopping cart (i may not be current on this)... reeks of incompetence? Can you trust them with your credit card info? - they have bribed developers to give them exclusivity, preventing me to get the games on the store of my choice. - btw the above means Steam but also GoG. You people calling out Steam for being a monopoly, how many titles have you bought on GoG? - Epic's only meaningful contribution to gaming since Unreal II is... a free to play arena shooter? Is that even a game? I can't afford free to play games, sorry. Do you really think that if the Epic Store somehow manages to "win", it will be better for us customers in any way? It's sad that the only entity fighting Apple's monopoly is... another would be monopolist.
  - u10 6y ago
    >games aren't cheaper on the Epic store, in spite of the allegedly smaller cut the store is supposed to take They are literally handing out free games, Total War: Troy, a brand new game, its free today >they're Windows only (and here comes the China reference, they only know about Windows in there) Games will not have first class support for linux for years to come, this is not indicative of the linux platform, simply that the market is tiny and developer time is better spent on supporting platforms that are widely used. >they have bribed developers to give them exclusivity, preventing me to get the games on the store of my choice. Seems to be a pretty simple calculus to me. Epic is willing to pay developers and publishers to have exclusive access to their games. Steam takes a 30% cut, Epic takes 12%. I would take that deal in a heartbeat. >btw the above means Steam but also GoG. You people calling out Steam for being a monopoly, how many titles have you bought on GoG? plenty, they offer a useful service by providing older games with support for modern OS. They have their niche within the ecosystem but they are by and large not competing with Steam >Epic's only meaningful contribution to gaming since Unreal II is... a free to play arena shooter? Is that even a game? I can't afford free to play games, sorry. Besides Fortnite being an economic and cultural phenomenon, they are very generous with providing access to their Unreal Engine software, even cutting the cost of using it until they the developers are actually generating revenue.
Reedx 6y ago
> Epic is literally buying the companies behind long established games, removing game support for alternative OSes, and eventually only allowing access from "the epic store". What are the examples where that happened? They rarely buy game companies. With Psyonix they are making Rocket League free to play and won't be able to download it on Steam, but will still be on a bunch of platforms.
- nottorp 6y ago
  Not sure about buying established companies, but they bribed quite a few succesful kickstarter projects to go Epic exclusive for at least a year, including one I backed and had high hopes for.
- notamy 6y ago
  Rocket League; if I remember correctly the Linux support was dropped and it was intended to no longer be on Steam. Unsure where it stands now as it's been a while since I actively followed that game.
  - justwalt 6y ago
    It will be playable but not purchasable on Steam starting on the 31st of this month.
balfirevic 6y ago
> They're both walled garden monopolists. Is "monopolist" now just used to mean "big"?
binthere 6y ago
No, you're wrong. The key difference you're missing is that Epic is not forcing any developers to do anything. They can do whatever they want, but IF and only IF they want some funding they need to sign a deal that benefits both parties. Gamers don't lose anything because they can still play the game, if anything it's better because now the game developer was able to polish or finish a game with the additional funding they have.