3 ms·

Can you give more of a reason why "most" people don't care about it? Why would inclusion be an annoyance?

mmm_grayons 6y ago
Because "diversity offenses" typically happens against minorities, which definitionally aren't most people. It's also a questionable use of funds in that the places that would hire one are probably less likely to need it. But treating everyone well and handling issues through HR as normal is no longer sufficient; a diversity and inclusion staff has become the requisite "Workers of the world, unite!" sign: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless#Havel's_greengrocer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless#Hav... Add to this that most people don't like being preached at not to be racist etc. when most already aren't.
- apacheCamel 6y ago
  Okay so I am a bit more confused now. You are comparing being told about diversity and inclusion in the workplace to communism? > handling issues through HR as normal is no longer sufficient I am almost certain most of these "diversity and inclusion staff" you speak of are part of HR, so yes, it is still normal. I get it, you don't want to preached to about something you aren't, but isn't that life in general? Being told stuff daily that either doesn't apply to you, you already know, or would never do?
  - dx87 6y ago
    > I get it, you don't want to preached to about something you aren't, but isn't that life in general? Being told stuff daily that either doesn't apply to you, you already know, or would never do? To me, that's not life, that's being micro-managed or treated like a child. I'd never want to work somewhere that treats employees like that.
    - apacheCamel 6y ago
      Do you throw your hands in the air every time your lead reminds you of a due date you already knew? Do you skip "meetings that could have been emails"? I have yet to find a place that doesn't tell me something I already know or hold on my hand on some minor things. I just go about it, being upset over it isn't worth my time.
      - mmm_grayons 6y ago
        No, but were it a regular problem, I'd absolutely bring up that it's likely an annoyance and a productivity hit for most people and a good manager would try to help fix the issue.
  - mmm_grayons 6y ago
    No, I'm trying to draw an analogy. Companies over the past few years have been expected to vocally articulate a commitment to a certain set of social values. This typically involves hiring diversity staff, mandatory training, letters of solidarity, etc. The mission of the corporation is still to make money, just as is the mission of a greengrocer. > isn't that life in general Sure, it still happens, but if it happens repeatedly in the workplace, I might try to reduce it. I also sincerely doubt that a terrible racist person will stop being one because his company implements mandatory diversity training.
spanhandler 6y ago
This sorts of stuff is very often experienced by staff as lame box-ticking exercises they have to suffer through annually or quarterly, put together by people who spend most of the time keeping their chair from floating to the ceiling, and were only hired to make things look better if anything bad happens ("well look, we did something, look at all these records of training videos and ridiculous quizzes we made everyone take!") That may not have been the case at Mozilla but it absolutely is at a lot of bigcos and in government.
- apacheCamel 6y ago
  How are you so sure this version of it so rampant everywhere? I am genuinely curious why so many people state this is such a common occurrence yet I have yet to see it myself personally.
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    You may not have worked at or know many people who work at sufficiently boring workplaces. It's the default at those, and that's... most workplaces, among the ones big enough to have this kind of thing. "Training" from HR means "watch dumb videos in a browser for two hours, then take a quiz you could have passed with a 100% score without watching the videos". If you're really unlucky it's some in-person variant that's the live equivalent of that. If this is not what you mean you're doing when you tell someone you've got "training" this week, you'll need to specify, because that's what all your fellow-suffering workers will assume it is. Many of them probably experience it at least annually, on a schedule, no matter how many times they've done essentially the same crap, and some more often. I've been fortunate to be with small companies almost my entire career so I've experienced this first-hand exactly once, but my friend circle's not at small companies and not in tech. That's what they talk about when they talk about (complain about, commiserate over) "training". It's super common.

Because "diversity offenses" typically happens against minorities, which definitionally aren't most people. It's also a questionable use of funds in that the places that would hire one are probably less likely to need it. But treating everyone well and handling issues through HR as normal is no longer sufficient; a diversity and inclusion staff has become the requisite "Workers of the world, unite!" sign: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless#Havel's_greengrocer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_the_Powerless#Hav... Add to this that most people don't like being preached at not to be racist etc. when most already aren't.

apacheCamel 6y ago
Okay so I am a bit more confused now. You are comparing being told about diversity and inclusion in the workplace to communism? > handling issues through HR as normal is no longer sufficient I am almost certain most of these "diversity and inclusion staff" you speak of are part of HR, so yes, it is still normal. I get it, you don't want to preached to about something you aren't, but isn't that life in general? Being told stuff daily that either doesn't apply to you, you already know, or would never do?
- dx87 6y ago
  > I get it, you don't want to preached to about something you aren't, but isn't that life in general? Being told stuff daily that either doesn't apply to you, you already know, or would never do? To me, that's not life, that's being micro-managed or treated like a child. I'd never want to work somewhere that treats employees like that.
  - apacheCamel 6y ago
    Do you throw your hands in the air every time your lead reminds you of a due date you already knew? Do you skip "meetings that could have been emails"? I have yet to find a place that doesn't tell me something I already know or hold on my hand on some minor things. I just go about it, being upset over it isn't worth my time.
    - mmm_grayons 6y ago
      No, but were it a regular problem, I'd absolutely bring up that it's likely an annoyance and a productivity hit for most people and a good manager would try to help fix the issue.
- mmm_grayons 6y ago
  No, I'm trying to draw an analogy. Companies over the past few years have been expected to vocally articulate a commitment to a certain set of social values. This typically involves hiring diversity staff, mandatory training, letters of solidarity, etc. The mission of the corporation is still to make money, just as is the mission of a greengrocer. > isn't that life in general Sure, it still happens, but if it happens repeatedly in the workplace, I might try to reduce it. I also sincerely doubt that a terrible racist person will stop being one because his company implements mandatory diversity training.

spanhandler 6y ago

This sorts of stuff is very often experienced by staff as lame box-ticking exercises they have to suffer through annually or quarterly, put together by people who spend most of the time keeping their chair from floating to the ceiling, and were only hired to make things look better if anything bad happens ("well look, we did something, look at all these records of training videos and ridiculous quizzes we made everyone take!") That may not have been the case at Mozilla but it absolutely is at a lot of bigcos and in government.

apacheCamel 6y ago
How are you so sure this version of it so rampant everywhere? I am genuinely curious why so many people state this is such a common occurrence yet I have yet to see it myself personally.
- spanhandler 6y ago
  You may not have worked at or know many people who work at sufficiently boring workplaces. It's the default at those, and that's... most workplaces, among the ones big enough to have this kind of thing. "Training" from HR means "watch dumb videos in a browser for two hours, then take a quiz you could have passed with a 100% score without watching the videos". If you're really unlucky it's some in-person variant that's the live equivalent of that. If this is not what you mean you're doing when you tell someone you've got "training" this week, you'll need to specify, because that's what all your fellow-suffering workers will assume it is. Many of them probably experience it at least annually, on a schedule, no matter how many times they've done essentially the same crap, and some more often. I've been fortunate to be with small companies almost my entire career so I've experienced this first-hand exactly once, but my friend circle's not at small companies and not in tech. That's what they talk about when they talk about (complain about, commiserate over) "training". It's super common.