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I think the more obvious answer is that men and women prefer different things on a group basis and there is a lot of science to back this up. In countries that

I think the more obvious answer is that men and women prefer different things on a group basis and there is a lot of science to back this up. In countries that are less free, there are more women in IT than in western countries where people are free to go after whatever interests them. This holds true even when loads of money are poured onto different diversity projects. There is a great Norwegian documentary about this subject, called "Hjernevask - The gender equality paradox" which translates to "brain washing". You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E577jhf25t4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E577jhf25t4

fwsgonzo 6y ago
The science is indeed pretty clear, even though many do not like that. You can easily pick up changes in attitudes when men have daughters, and want them to do well, which means they want them to go into STEM or other high paying fields. However, we basically know at birth whether someone wants to build things or play with dolls. I don't think it's that bad. But I can absolutely empathize with the dread of hearing your son/daughter wanting to take a liberal arts degree. You know, it's not the degree that's the issue. It's the 50 years after of cumulative low salary.
- ecmascript 6y ago
  > The science is indeed pretty clear, even though many do not like that. It's evidence for how much political influence is in academia today. In my country of origin, Sweden, believing this kind of science is very politically incorrect. It's stupid, of course our brains are wired different it is the most important organ in our bodies. Who really cares if we prefer different things? We should celebrate our differences, not fight it. It's funny when people try to fight our biology, it's a loosing cause and you will most likely make people unhappy.
  - anticristi 6y ago
    No, the science is not clear: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7002030/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7002030/. Infants at 9 months prefer the toys they saw at home. If they saw gendered toys at home, that is what you will measure in the lab too. I also live in Sweden and am also unhappy about some conversations having become tabu, in an otherwise very tolerant country. However, I do get that people are tired of playing whack-a-mole against the biological hypothesis to gender differences.
aosaigh 6y ago
Buy why do one group prefer some things over others? Is it because that’s what’s been available to them, that’s what they’ve been told to like etc.? I’m not going to enjoy Computer Science if I’ve never been exposed in any way to computers, or seen anyone else in my group in that industry etc. By the way this is a genuine question. I completely believe that it’s not controversial to expect there to be differences amongst groups. It’s just that with issues like gender there seems to be so many different things at play that it’s hard to pin it down.
- janbernhart 6y ago
  It's not like girls grow up in different houses/schools/families as boys do. Computers are equally around. You can argue if/how they are stimulated to play with computers rather then something else, and having role-models definitely plays a role. Moreover, it's a discussion if we should strive for equal opportunity or equal outcome. Some ideologies push for the latter, and (ironically) free will of those they try to support gets in the way.
- ecmascript 6y ago
  > I’m not going to enjoy Computer Science if I’ve never been exposed in any way to computers Sure, if you're never exposed to computers of course you won't be able to enjoy them or be interested in computer science and see that as a valid option. This is not really the case today though and women to a large degree still prefer other things given the option. The documentary comes to the same conclusion, that both environmental and biological stuff affects us but modern social science disregards any evidence for biological effects and that is the main issue with all debates about gender.
anticristi 6y ago
Excellent documentary! I'm not sure I agree, but I like the moderate conclusion of part 1: Both biological and cultural differences contribute to differences in job preferences between men and women. If we play along this conclusion, it does not really invalidate my hypothesis. Could it be that more women would participate in the IT workforce if it wasn't for physical work creep?
- anticristi 6y ago
  Just to make sure, I don't think it "ends" the discussion, but some research presented in the documentary was later discredited: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7002030/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7002030/ In particular, the "infants prefer gendered toys at 9 months" can easily be explained by exposure to such toys at home. The "1-day-old infant look" can be refuted as BS by anyone who saw a 1-day-old infant: Their eyes do not focus at that age!!! Long story short: Buy "boy" toys and "girl" toys before seeing the genitals of your offspring. :D

fwsgonzo 6y ago

The science is indeed pretty clear, even though many do not like that. You can easily pick up changes in attitudes when men have daughters, and want them to do well, which means they want them to go into STEM or other high paying fields. However, we basically know at birth whether someone wants to build things or play with dolls. I don't think it's that bad. But I can absolutely empathize with the dread of hearing your son/daughter wanting to take a liberal arts degree. You know, it's not the degree that's the issue. It's the 50 years after of cumulative low salary.

ecmascript 6y ago
> The science is indeed pretty clear, even though many do not like that. It's evidence for how much political influence is in academia today. In my country of origin, Sweden, believing this kind of science is very politically incorrect. It's stupid, of course our brains are wired different it is the most important organ in our bodies. Who really cares if we prefer different things? We should celebrate our differences, not fight it. It's funny when people try to fight our biology, it's a loosing cause and you will most likely make people unhappy.
- anticristi 6y ago
  No, the science is not clear: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7002030/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7002030/. Infants at 9 months prefer the toys they saw at home. If they saw gendered toys at home, that is what you will measure in the lab too. I also live in Sweden and am also unhappy about some conversations having become tabu, in an otherwise very tolerant country. However, I do get that people are tired of playing whack-a-mole against the biological hypothesis to gender differences.

aosaigh 6y ago

Buy why do one group prefer some things over others? Is it because that’s what’s been available to them, that’s what they’ve been told to like etc.? I’m not going to enjoy Computer Science if I’ve never been exposed in any way to computers, or seen anyone else in my group in that industry etc. By the way this is a genuine question. I completely believe that it’s not controversial to expect there to be differences amongst groups. It’s just that with issues like gender there seems to be so many different things at play that it’s hard to pin it down.

janbernhart 6y ago
It's not like girls grow up in different houses/schools/families as boys do. Computers are equally around. You can argue if/how they are stimulated to play with computers rather then something else, and having role-models definitely plays a role. Moreover, it's a discussion if we should strive for equal opportunity or equal outcome. Some ideologies push for the latter, and (ironically) free will of those they try to support gets in the way.
ecmascript 6y ago
> I’m not going to enjoy Computer Science if I’ve never been exposed in any way to computers Sure, if you're never exposed to computers of course you won't be able to enjoy them or be interested in computer science and see that as a valid option. This is not really the case today though and women to a large degree still prefer other things given the option. The documentary comes to the same conclusion, that both environmental and biological stuff affects us but modern social science disregards any evidence for biological effects and that is the main issue with all debates about gender.

anticristi 6y ago

Excellent documentary! I'm not sure I agree, but I like the moderate conclusion of part 1: Both biological and cultural differences contribute to differences in job preferences between men and women. If we play along this conclusion, it does not really invalidate my hypothesis. Could it be that more women would participate in the IT workforce if it wasn't for physical work creep?

anticristi 6y ago
Just to make sure, I don't think it "ends" the discussion, but some research presented in the documentary was later discredited: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7002030/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7002030/ In particular, the "infants prefer gendered toys at 9 months" can easily be explained by exposure to such toys at home. The "1-day-old infant look" can be refuted as BS by anyone who saw a 1-day-old infant: Their eyes do not focus at that age!!! Long story short: Buy "boy" toys and "girl" toys before seeing the genitals of your offspring. :D