8 ms·

Behaviors resembling ADHD may be linked to increased entrepreneurial behavior

87 points by anthilemoon 6y ago

james_s_tayler 6y ago
This actually has nothing to do with ADHD. It's badly named and badly thought out. It's actually reporting on a 2nd order effect sleep deprivation has via impaired executive function on impulsivity. Should be titled 'Sleep deprivation may be linked to increased entreprenurial behavior'. It reads like low-quality, hot garbage.
- georgespencer 6y ago
  Agreed. Seems very likely to perpetuate the myth of ADHD sufferers as being gifted with neurological superpowers when actually the "ADHD-like" symptoms they describe are debilitating for many.
  - james_s_tayler 6y ago
    The premise is just warped from the start. "Hey kids, impaired executive function may make you more likely to succeed in life." I mean... what? Starting a company (or three) because your impulse control is shot is statistically more likely to financially ruin you than it is to make you succeed. Not to mention how useful properly functioning executive function is in actually running a company that has a chance of succeeding. Take it from me...
    - tokai 6y ago
      But think of all the possible benefits of sleep issues! The amount of growth we could have if everyone just slept a little worse. /s
      - akuji1993 6y ago
        That point is what really gets me going. This experiment is badly designed from the start. Experiment 1 is especially useless, as it tries to correlate answers that people gave while being sleep deprived to their general sleep patterns and assumes that the outcome is the same. What?
synaesthesisx 6y ago
As an anecdote, some of the brightest founders I’ve met, and have had the pleasure of working with - would certainly fall into this category. Some of these folks have expressed their challenges in functioning optimally in traditional structured 9-to-5’s, open-office environments and the like. Perhaps they are motivated by creating an environment that works for them, rather than being a product of a one-size-fits-all approach. We need to embrace neurodiversity, not stigmatize it. “Here’s to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes… the ones who see things differently — they’re not fond of rules… You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can’t do is ignore them because they change things… they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.“
- Magodo 6y ago
  > We need to embrace neurodiversity, not stigmatize it. Or stop needlessly labeling things
  - cinntaile 6y ago
    Getting diagnosed and therefore getting labeled probably has advantages for the people that get a diagnosis. It will likely provide them with (medical/psychological) support that will make their lives a little easier. I don't know why you think there is no need for this?
    - jasonvorhe 6y ago
      Because to people who are neuro typical, these terms suggest that other people are just making things up to not seem stupid, incompetent or lazy, unfortunately.
      - james_s_tayler 6y ago
        Well if you're an ignorant cunt, maybe.
tokai 6y ago
So what about stims like amphetamine or cocaine? They provide even more impulsive tendencies and hyperactivity than a bad nights sleep. To be honest its sound to me like they are getting the effect backwards.
- georgespencer 6y ago
  > stims [...] provide even more impulsive tendencies In people who suffer from ADHD, stimulants actually have the opposite effect, and are prescribed specifically to reduce the disregulation of executive function.
  - tokai 6y ago
    That is not relevant. The research is not about ADHD.
    - georgespencer 6y ago
      There is some preliminary evidence to suggest that poor sleep can be a significant factor in ADHD.[1] Do you believe that the various intertwined chemical disregulations of confirmed ADHD diagnoses have no commonality with those who experience poor sleep? There seem to be a lot of studies indicating that poor sleep results in temporary decreases in dopamine receptor availability.[2] Either way it seems like the authors should specify the control within both samples for confirmed ADHD diagnoses (can't find it if they disclosed it), and shift away from "ADHD-like" if they don't mean to draw an implicit comparison. [1] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7MuIr-DsCvEJ:https://www.ecnp.eu/-/media/Files/ecnp/About%2520ECNP/Press/2017/Kooij%2520pr%2520FINAL_Sunday.pdf https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7MuIr-... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3433285/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3433285/
      - tokai 6y ago
        The research in question is of low quality. They use of the term ADHD is possibly as research SEO, and to cover-up the fact that they are not measuring a well defined phenomenon, but some self-reported answerers about sleep quality. I have no interest in discussing ADHD here, and I don't understand why you bring it up.
yomly 6y ago
Anecdotally, most of the people from my high school who went on to be entrepreneurial definitely had a naughty streak in them. I think there is an overlap in the two personalities for sure
S_A_P 6y ago
What does ADHD have to do with sleep deprivation?!?? Why are we conflating poor sleep habits with ADHD unless someone is abusing ADHD medication and not getting enough sleep? Why do I let poorly written articles bother me so much?
- owens99 6y ago
  Poor sleep is not just caused by poor sleep habits. Sleep apnea, as an example, is a disability that causes poor sleep and often goes undiagnosed. ADHD is not a disability per se, it is classified by the symptoms and is not classified by any underlying cause.
  - S_A_P 6y ago
    I totally agree and that is why I dont understand why it is linking ADHD and sleep deprivation.
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      Because many people with ADHD have poor sleep habits, and it's a recognized symptom.
- s5300 6y ago
  I really hope you're not being serious. If you are, please actually research what you're talking about. Here's what a 5 second Googling got - there's a ton more to it than that though. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5662391/#:~:text=Goraya%20et%20al%20found%20that,and%20hyperactivity%20in%20ADHD%20children https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5662391/#:~:tex.... And, just so you know, ADHD medicine (stimulants/amphetamines) actually helps people with ADHD sleep. Like, tremendously I know you specifically said abuse - but I still think that'd worse mentioning. P.S. - did you know methamphetamine is a prescription drug? (U.S )
owens99 6y ago
A lot of people in the comments appear to have a misunderstanding of ADHD and sleep disorders. It is possible to have both conditions simultaneously, and likely very common. ADHD is a condition defined by a sustained period of symptoms, not underlying causes or biological tests. It is 100% consistent for someone to have ADHD in one environment and not in another. This is how it is viewed in psychiatry. If you spend many years as an accountant focusing on detailed work in your job, but you can’t focus to complete your work, you may be diagnosed with ADHD and treated with medicine. If you then change careers to be an artist in a creative field, but face no dysfunction or difficulty in completing your work, you would no longer be diagnosed. The same applies to having a sleep disorder and then getting it treated. Though it is not clear if sleep disorders in childhood cause irreversible changes to the brain.
- thrav 6y ago
  Just to be clear, your diagnosis may change, but you’re not any less ADHD (assuming you actually were in the first place). ADHD is a product of the brain developing in a different way. It’s not contextual, even if it’s most obvious symptoms might be.
  - fatnoah 6y ago
    >Just to be clear, your diagnosis may change, but you’re not any less ADHD (assuming you actually were in the first place). ADHD is a product of the brain developing in a different way. It’s not contextual, even if it’s most obvious symptoms might be. My son had fairly extensive two day evaluation for ADHD. The test itself was not even close to finding out how things worked in everyday life. It was activities and exercises designed to understand how his brain worked. It was super-enlightening to me to get an idea of what challenges he was facing. Simply having the evaluation and having the results shown and explained did wonders for our ability to support him in school and beyond. In any cases, this is a really long-winded way to agree with you. It's about how your brain works, not about functioning in life situations. That said, some situations will make it more or less apparent that your brain works in a certain way.
    - 6y ago
scohesc 6y ago
I have ADHD (and chronic sleep issues) that were undiagnosed until I was in my early 20's. With a less than stellar childhood under my belt with an abusive, narcissistic father and enabling mother, I ended up being a social recluse and only recently in my mid 20's have I figured out that I'm severely lacking in my "executive functioning" skills (along with other ideal skills like social skills, people skills, etc.) thanks to finally seeing a psychiatrist about it... (5 years seeing them on and off and I'm still working through my issues - for those with problems, please stick with your mental health care, it helps a lot even if it doesn't seem like it most times) It's insurmountably hard to dig out of the hole I've dug with numerous issues (ADHD, anxiety, depression, chronic issues with restful sleep since a young age - not helped by my obesity and my apparent "ability" to convince myself not to exercise even though I think about doing it - and get angry when I don't do it - fairly often) I guess I can congratulate myself that I was able to make it through college and have a full-time job in Engineering making somewhat decent money. I get angry at myself pretty much almost daily for the things that I've failed to do, awkward situations I've been in, things I regret doing or not doing... It's taken (and is still taking) a very big toll on my mental health and I don't think any medication will help me with that. It gets to the point where I'm so frustrated, I'll make angry "noises" out loud (when alone - that's weird to do publicly) in a way to try and help get what's bugging me out because I can't talk to anybody around me about it. Now, with that MASSIVE tangent - I can see the paper making sense in that ADHD will allow people to take more "risks" without thinking of the consequences too much, which could be interpreted as "entrepreneurial", however I think it's just renaming/re-badging something that should be addressed and corrected/adjusted, not celebrated...
- nbardy 6y ago
  Nonsense. We need to create a society that allows people outside the narrow band of “can sit focused on a narrow set of tasks” for 8 hours to have successful. Careers. Create space for the risk takers to take risks.
ekanes 6y ago
ADHD makes normal life/jobs/college harder, which leaves entrepreneurship as a viable option. It might be less chosen and more that you don't fit as well into regular societal work expectations. That was my case. Worked out well for me, but when I failed grade 12 and then failed out of college it didn't seem great at the time.
- jl2718 6y ago
  I have seen this pattern in the vast majority of successful entrepreneurs I know personally. Fail at school, fired at work, fail, fail, fail, something works, focus, convince everybody that they are actually a genius, tres commas. Prior to success, they have seemed indistinguishable from the many others that ended up just plain failing and going nowhere. Personally I was a reformable failure in that I once had ‘entrepreneur’ potential but succumbed to just enough conscientiousness to chase a traditional career path from behind. Maybe there is hope that someday I will screw up badly enough in the traditional path to force myself into doing something great.

87 points by anthilemoon 6y ago

This actually has nothing to do with ADHD. It's badly named and badly thought out. It's actually reporting on a 2nd order effect sleep deprivation has via impaired executive function on impulsivity. Should be titled 'Sleep deprivation may be linked to increased entreprenurial behavior'. It reads like low-quality, hot garbage.

georgespencer 6y ago
Agreed. Seems very likely to perpetuate the myth of ADHD sufferers as being gifted with neurological superpowers when actually the "ADHD-like" symptoms they describe are debilitating for many.
- james_s_tayler 6y ago
  The premise is just warped from the start. "Hey kids, impaired executive function may make you more likely to succeed in life." I mean... what? Starting a company (or three) because your impulse control is shot is statistically more likely to financially ruin you than it is to make you succeed. Not to mention how useful properly functioning executive function is in actually running a company that has a chance of succeeding. Take it from me...
  - tokai 6y ago
    But think of all the possible benefits of sleep issues! The amount of growth we could have if everyone just slept a little worse. /s
    - akuji1993 6y ago
      That point is what really gets me going. This experiment is badly designed from the start. Experiment 1 is especially useless, as it tries to correlate answers that people gave while being sleep deprived to their general sleep patterns and assumes that the outcome is the same. What?

synaesthesisx 6y ago

As an anecdote, some of the brightest founders I’ve met, and have had the pleasure of working with - would certainly fall into this category. Some of these folks have expressed their challenges in functioning optimally in traditional structured 9-to-5’s, open-office environments and the like. Perhaps they are motivated by creating an environment that works for them, rather than being a product of a one-size-fits-all approach. We need to embrace neurodiversity, not stigmatize it. “Here’s to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes… the ones who see things differently — they’re not fond of rules… You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them, but the only thing you can’t do is ignore them because they change things… they push the human race forward, and while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius, because the ones who are crazy enough to think that they can change the world, are the ones who do.“

Magodo 6y ago
> We need to embrace neurodiversity, not stigmatize it. Or stop needlessly labeling things
- cinntaile 6y ago
  Getting diagnosed and therefore getting labeled probably has advantages for the people that get a diagnosis. It will likely provide them with (medical/psychological) support that will make their lives a little easier. I don't know why you think there is no need for this?
  - jasonvorhe 6y ago
    Because to people who are neuro typical, these terms suggest that other people are just making things up to not seem stupid, incompetent or lazy, unfortunately.
    - james_s_tayler 6y ago
      Well if you're an ignorant cunt, maybe.

tokai 6y ago

So what about stims like amphetamine or cocaine? They provide even more impulsive tendencies and hyperactivity than a bad nights sleep. To be honest its sound to me like they are getting the effect backwards.

georgespencer 6y ago
> stims [...] provide even more impulsive tendencies In people who suffer from ADHD, stimulants actually have the opposite effect, and are prescribed specifically to reduce the disregulation of executive function.
- tokai 6y ago
  That is not relevant. The research is not about ADHD.
  - georgespencer 6y ago
    There is some preliminary evidence to suggest that poor sleep can be a significant factor in ADHD.[1] Do you believe that the various intertwined chemical disregulations of confirmed ADHD diagnoses have no commonality with those who experience poor sleep? There seem to be a lot of studies indicating that poor sleep results in temporary decreases in dopamine receptor availability.[2] Either way it seems like the authors should specify the control within both samples for confirmed ADHD diagnoses (can't find it if they disclosed it), and shift away from "ADHD-like" if they don't mean to draw an implicit comparison. [1] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7MuIr-DsCvEJ:https://www.ecnp.eu/-/media/Files/ecnp/About%2520ECNP/Press/2017/Kooij%2520pr%2520FINAL_Sunday.pdf https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7MuIr-... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3433285/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3433285/
    - tokai 6y ago
      The research in question is of low quality. They use of the term ADHD is possibly as research SEO, and to cover-up the fact that they are not measuring a well defined phenomenon, but some self-reported answerers about sleep quality. I have no interest in discussing ADHD here, and I don't understand why you bring it up.

yomly 6y ago

Anecdotally, most of the people from my high school who went on to be entrepreneurial definitely had a naughty streak in them. I think there is an overlap in the two personalities for sure

S_A_P 6y ago

What does ADHD have to do with sleep deprivation?!?? Why are we conflating poor sleep habits with ADHD unless someone is abusing ADHD medication and not getting enough sleep? Why do I let poorly written articles bother me so much?

owens99 6y ago
Poor sleep is not just caused by poor sleep habits. Sleep apnea, as an example, is a disability that causes poor sleep and often goes undiagnosed. ADHD is not a disability per se, it is classified by the symptoms and is not classified by any underlying cause.
- S_A_P 6y ago
  I totally agree and that is why I dont understand why it is linking ADHD and sleep deprivation.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Because many people with ADHD have poor sleep habits, and it's a recognized symptom.
s5300 6y ago
I really hope you're not being serious. If you are, please actually research what you're talking about. Here's what a 5 second Googling got - there's a ton more to it than that though. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5662391/#:~:text=Goraya%20et%20al%20found%20that,and%20hyperactivity%20in%20ADHD%20children https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5662391/#:~:tex.... And, just so you know, ADHD medicine (stimulants/amphetamines) actually helps people with ADHD sleep. Like, tremendously I know you specifically said abuse - but I still think that'd worse mentioning. P.S. - did you know methamphetamine is a prescription drug? (U.S )

owens99 6y ago

A lot of people in the comments appear to have a misunderstanding of ADHD and sleep disorders. It is possible to have both conditions simultaneously, and likely very common. ADHD is a condition defined by a sustained period of symptoms, not underlying causes or biological tests. It is 100% consistent for someone to have ADHD in one environment and not in another. This is how it is viewed in psychiatry. If you spend many years as an accountant focusing on detailed work in your job, but you can’t focus to complete your work, you may be diagnosed with ADHD and treated with medicine. If you then change careers to be an artist in a creative field, but face no dysfunction or difficulty in completing your work, you would no longer be diagnosed. The same applies to having a sleep disorder and then getting it treated. Though it is not clear if sleep disorders in childhood cause irreversible changes to the brain.

thrav 6y ago
Just to be clear, your diagnosis may change, but you’re not any less ADHD (assuming you actually were in the first place). ADHD is a product of the brain developing in a different way. It’s not contextual, even if it’s most obvious symptoms might be.
- fatnoah 6y ago
  >Just to be clear, your diagnosis may change, but you’re not any less ADHD (assuming you actually were in the first place). ADHD is a product of the brain developing in a different way. It’s not contextual, even if it’s most obvious symptoms might be. My son had fairly extensive two day evaluation for ADHD. The test itself was not even close to finding out how things worked in everyday life. It was activities and exercises designed to understand how his brain worked. It was super-enlightening to me to get an idea of what challenges he was facing. Simply having the evaluation and having the results shown and explained did wonders for our ability to support him in school and beyond. In any cases, this is a really long-winded way to agree with you. It's about how your brain works, not about functioning in life situations. That said, some situations will make it more or less apparent that your brain works in a certain way.
  - 6y ago

scohesc 6y ago

I have ADHD (and chronic sleep issues) that were undiagnosed until I was in my early 20's. With a less than stellar childhood under my belt with an abusive, narcissistic father and enabling mother, I ended up being a social recluse and only recently in my mid 20's have I figured out that I'm severely lacking in my "executive functioning" skills (along with other ideal skills like social skills, people skills, etc.) thanks to finally seeing a psychiatrist about it... (5 years seeing them on and off and I'm still working through my issues - for those with problems, please stick with your mental health care, it helps a lot even if it doesn't seem like it most times) It's insurmountably hard to dig out of the hole I've dug with numerous issues (ADHD, anxiety, depression, chronic issues with restful sleep since a young age - not helped by my obesity and my apparent "ability" to convince myself not to exercise even though I think about doing it - and get angry when I don't do it - fairly often) I guess I can congratulate myself that I was able to make it through college and have a full-time job in Engineering making somewhat decent money. I get angry at myself pretty much almost daily for the things that I've failed to do, awkward situations I've been in, things I regret doing or not doing... It's taken (and is still taking) a very big toll on my mental health and I don't think any medication will help me with that. It gets to the point where I'm so frustrated, I'll make angry "noises" out loud (when alone - that's weird to do publicly) in a way to try and help get what's bugging me out because I can't talk to anybody around me about it. Now, with that MASSIVE tangent - I can see the paper making sense in that ADHD will allow people to take more "risks" without thinking of the consequences too much, which could be interpreted as "entrepreneurial", however I think it's just renaming/re-badging something that should be addressed and corrected/adjusted, not celebrated...

nbardy 6y ago
Nonsense. We need to create a society that allows people outside the narrow band of “can sit focused on a narrow set of tasks” for 8 hours to have successful. Careers. Create space for the risk takers to take risks.

ekanes 6y ago

ADHD makes normal life/jobs/college harder, which leaves entrepreneurship as a viable option. It might be less chosen and more that you don't fit as well into regular societal work expectations. That was my case. Worked out well for me, but when I failed grade 12 and then failed out of college it didn't seem great at the time.

jl2718 6y ago
I have seen this pattern in the vast majority of successful entrepreneurs I know personally. Fail at school, fired at work, fail, fail, fail, something works, focus, convince everybody that they are actually a genius, tres commas. Prior to success, they have seemed indistinguishable from the many others that ended up just plain failing and going nowhere. Personally I was a reformable failure in that I once had ‘entrepreneur’ potential but succumbed to just enough conscientiousness to chase a traditional career path from behind. Maybe there is hope that someday I will screw up badly enough in the traditional path to force myself into doing something great.