4 ms·

I wonder if the historic version of this would have used boiled linseed oil as the resin rather than collagen glue.

by kleton 6y ago

tomcam 6y ago
Super cool point. Painters at the very least would have been aware of this technique.
exDM69 6y ago
I work with collagen glues and boiled linseed oil all the time, and they work great together. I have made wafer thin all-natural composite materials using wood fibers (thin plane shavings) as the substrate, hide glue to hold it together and thoroughly impregnated with boiled linseed oil with a beeswax top coat. The result is a rather strong material that's lightweight and thin enough to let light through. It is plausible that they would have used boiled linseed oil instead of or in combination with hide glue or other materials commonly used in that era (bitumen, beeswax, etc).
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  Hi, I'm also a woodworker, and I'd love to see pictures of the material you're describing!
  - exDM69 6y ago
    I'm sorry, can't find a picture right now. I call it "basket weave veneer", made by taking thin plane shavings, boiling them in a kettle and straightening them under weight and finally weaving them like a basket and applying some glue. Using (liquid) hide glue is essential in this job. With a PVA glue, you'd end up with a blob of plastic. Unlike PVAs, hide glue doesn't interfere with the finish (BLO). I did a few prototype sheets with the intent of making a lamp or lantern but never completed the project.
mauvehaus 6y ago
Probably not. From a logistical standpoint, animal skin glues dry in a matter of hours in this type of use. Boiled linseed oil might take several days. From a materials standpoint, animal skin glues dry to a hard, brittle substance. Linseed oil "dries" to a fairly gummy, flexible substance. I'm willing to bet that the hardness of the glue combined with the strength of the fibers throughout the armor is what makes it effective. I'd be willing to bet that the linseed oil wouldn't bind the fibers of the linen tightly enough together to prevent them being pierced by an arrow. That said, it's hard to make a direct comparison between historical and modern boiled linseed oils[0]. Historic BLO was literally boiled with white lead. I believe what you buy at the hardware store today as BLO is typically stand oil or linseed oil with some other metallic driers added, as the use of lead in all forms has fallen out of style :-) OBLIGATORY WARNING: When people talk about oily rags spontaneously combusting, they're talking about linseed oil and a few others. If you do anything with linseed oil, boiled or otherwise, please take a few minutes to understand how to dispose of your rags safely so you don't burn your place down. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linseed_oil#Modified_linseed_oils https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linseed_oil#Modified_linseed_o...
- Doxin 6y ago
  I don't know if you've ever worked with double boiled linseed oil -- the actually boiled kind not the chemically modified kind -- but that definitely dries to the point where it will shatter instead of bending. Some experimentation with impregnating paper with it makes me believe it'd be excellent for fabric armor like in the article. Obviously it'll be a much slower process since the linseed oil takes so long to cure but depending on availability of materials it might still have been used.
  - mauvehaus 6y ago
    I have not, I've only ever used the hardware store stuff. This is really interesting info; thanks! Where does one get this stuff? Please feel free to reach out by email. Address in profile.
    - Doxin 6y ago

I wonder if the historic version of this would have used boiled linseed oil as the resin rather than collagen glue.

by kleton 6y ago

I wonder if the historic version of this would have used boiled linseed oil as the resin rather than collagen glue.

tomcam 6y ago

Super cool point. Painters at the very least would have been aware of this technique.

exDM69 6y ago

I work with collagen glues and boiled linseed oil all the time, and they work great together. I have made wafer thin all-natural composite materials using wood fibers (thin plane shavings) as the substrate, hide glue to hold it together and thoroughly impregnated with boiled linseed oil with a beeswax top coat. The result is a rather strong material that's lightweight and thin enough to let light through. It is plausible that they would have used boiled linseed oil instead of or in combination with hide glue or other materials commonly used in that era (bitumen, beeswax, etc).

mauvehaus 6y ago
Hi, I'm also a woodworker, and I'd love to see pictures of the material you're describing!
- exDM69 6y ago
  I'm sorry, can't find a picture right now. I call it "basket weave veneer", made by taking thin plane shavings, boiling them in a kettle and straightening them under weight and finally weaving them like a basket and applying some glue. Using (liquid) hide glue is essential in this job. With a PVA glue, you'd end up with a blob of plastic. Unlike PVAs, hide glue doesn't interfere with the finish (BLO). I did a few prototype sheets with the intent of making a lamp or lantern but never completed the project.

mauvehaus 6y ago

Probably not. From a logistical standpoint, animal skin glues dry in a matter of hours in this type of use. Boiled linseed oil might take several days. From a materials standpoint, animal skin glues dry to a hard, brittle substance. Linseed oil "dries" to a fairly gummy, flexible substance. I'm willing to bet that the hardness of the glue combined with the strength of the fibers throughout the armor is what makes it effective. I'd be willing to bet that the linseed oil wouldn't bind the fibers of the linen tightly enough together to prevent them being pierced by an arrow. That said, it's hard to make a direct comparison between historical and modern boiled linseed oils[0]. Historic BLO was literally boiled with white lead. I believe what you buy at the hardware store today as BLO is typically stand oil or linseed oil with some other metallic driers added, as the use of lead in all forms has fallen out of style :-) OBLIGATORY WARNING: When people talk about oily rags spontaneously combusting, they're talking about linseed oil and a few others. If you do anything with linseed oil, boiled or otherwise, please take a few minutes to understand how to dispose of your rags safely so you don't burn your place down. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linseed_oil#Modified_linseed_oils https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linseed_oil#Modified_linseed_o...

Doxin 6y ago
I don't know if you've ever worked with double boiled linseed oil -- the actually boiled kind not the chemically modified kind -- but that definitely dries to the point where it will shatter instead of bending. Some experimentation with impregnating paper with it makes me believe it'd be excellent for fabric armor like in the article. Obviously it'll be a much slower process since the linseed oil takes so long to cure but depending on availability of materials it might still have been used.
- mauvehaus 6y ago
  I have not, I've only ever used the hardware store stuff. This is really interesting info; thanks! Where does one get this stuff? Please feel free to reach out by email. Address in profile.
  - Doxin 6y ago