5 ms·

But with cars. No, I'm not making this up. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1285819565407002624 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1285819565407002624

stingraycharles 6y ago
But... that’s just like shuttle taxis on the airport. Except underground. Guess boring technology triumphs again.
nickik 6y ago
Its almost like using mass produced cars in simple tunnels are cheaper then low volume subway systems.
ashtonkem 6y ago
This seems worse than a subway in pretty much every metric, unless if you happen to be same person who's selling the cars that it's compatible with.
- TigeriusKirk 6y ago
  There are a number of metrics where it's clearly better. Scheduling and routing. Not waiting 10-30 minutes for the next train depending on time of day. Not stopping anywhere but your destination. No connections or changeovers. Personal space. Privacy, safety. Regardless of how you personally feel about this factor, it matters enough to some people to significantly impact usage. Those factors may or may not be enough to warrant changing the systems, but they certainly are metrics by which Musk's systems are better.
  - ashtonkem 6y ago
    It’ll also transit a tiny fraction of what a traditional subway would, and requires ownership of a car to use (assuming that a Tesla isn’t a requirement or at least preferred). I’m thoroughly convinced that these types of systems, along with self driving cars, are purely fantasies to allow people to believe that we can fix all the problems of car culture without having to give something up. If you want to move a lot of people through a city, build a subway. They’re proven and effective. Stop trying to find a way to turn subways into cars, the result is always ridiculous.
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      Or, given the capacity limitations of the boring company thing, just build a segregated bus lane. The main advantage of subways over trams and fully segregated bus lanes is capacity, so if you’re not doing that...
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    Loop is basically a personal rapid transit system, which is an idea that keeps getting proposed for basically the reasons you cite, but the few implementations that do exist have generally underwhelmed.
  - andbberger 6y ago
    Waiting 10-30 minutes for a train isn't a technological consequence of rail transportation, it's a symptom of a catastrophically inept transit agency. What's stopping, say, Caltrain, from running trains at peak frequency all day? Incompetent leadership. They have the trains (which spend all day sitting idle _at_ terminus platforms), the have the crew (who also sit idle during the day), they have the capacity to run more trains off peak. They made a deliberate choice to not run the trains. You might make the case that running more trains off-peak would increase maintenance costs. But I would wager that such maintenance costs pale in comparison to the cost of building enough platforms at your downtown termini to store trains all day. Moreover who cares about maintenance costs? It's insane to think that public transit should be profitable. loop is an elitist perversion of transit
    - jcranmer 6y ago
      > You might make the case that running more trains off-peak would increase maintenance costs. Alon Levy has done the math [1] and found that providing extra off-peak service is about 20% the cost of providing extra peak service, since the capital costs and labor costs dominate the actual operational costs. [1] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/01/22/base-train-service-is-cheap-peak-train-service-is-expensive/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/01/22/base-train-ser...
      - andbberger 6y ago
        Yup essentially getting all of that directly from Alon's various posts on Caltrain's incompetence.
    - nick_kline 6y ago
      Well, they don't run them all day because of the cost of the use of the trains and the cost of the crews. The crews can't be paid all day to do nothing.
      - andbberger 6y ago
        The crews can absolutely be paid all day to do nothing.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    > Scheduling and routing. Not waiting 10-30 minutes for the next train depending on time of day. Subway systems are normally run at higher frequency than that. Those are more suburban commuter rail frequencies. > Not stopping anywhere but your destination. What if someone else stops in the tunnel in front of you. > No connections or changeovers. Only one tunnel depth?
  - sudosysgen 6y ago
    Our subway system in Montreal runs at a frequency of anywhere from 2 minutes to 7 minutes. There are even faster ones.
    - Ajedi32 6y ago
      That's still 2 to 7 minutes longer than a Loop tunnel. And that also only addresses half of the GP's comment (scheduling).
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        Yep, except that in order to match the capacity of the Montreal metro system you would need to have a car departing every 2 seconds, which is impossible.
        Ajedi32 6y ago
        One car every 2 seconds sounds totally plausible. In fact, that number actually seems pretty low to me. A single lane/tunnel should be able to handle automated cars traveling at a 2-second following distance no problem, so that just leaves loading/unloading as a potential bottleneck. How many on-ramps do you think it would take to reach a capacity of 0.5 cars/second? I'm really curious as to what sort of problems you're envisioning which would make that "impossible".
        liability 6y ago
        How many amusement parks can load a ride car once every two seconds? Even continuously moving ski lifts aren't anywhere close to that and that's basically ideal conditions where the seat is delivered straight to your butt, and most users can reasonable be expected to be fit and coordinated. In the real world, people dawdle. You'd probably need dozens of loading lanes to reach .5/s, which means the stations are very large and expensive caverns.
        Ajedi32 6y ago
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
flukus 6y ago
So a subway but only for 8 people?

stingraycharles 6y ago

But... that’s just like shuttle taxis on the airport. Except underground. Guess boring technology triumphs again.

nickik 6y ago

Its almost like using mass produced cars in simple tunnels are cheaper then low volume subway systems.

ashtonkem 6y ago

This seems worse than a subway in pretty much every metric, unless if you happen to be same person who's selling the cars that it's compatible with.

TigeriusKirk 6y ago
There are a number of metrics where it's clearly better. Scheduling and routing. Not waiting 10-30 minutes for the next train depending on time of day. Not stopping anywhere but your destination. No connections or changeovers. Personal space. Privacy, safety. Regardless of how you personally feel about this factor, it matters enough to some people to significantly impact usage. Those factors may or may not be enough to warrant changing the systems, but they certainly are metrics by which Musk's systems are better.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  It’ll also transit a tiny fraction of what a traditional subway would, and requires ownership of a car to use (assuming that a Tesla isn’t a requirement or at least preferred). I’m thoroughly convinced that these types of systems, along with self driving cars, are purely fantasies to allow people to believe that we can fix all the problems of car culture without having to give something up. If you want to move a lot of people through a city, build a subway. They’re proven and effective. Stop trying to find a way to turn subways into cars, the result is always ridiculous.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    Or, given the capacity limitations of the boring company thing, just build a segregated bus lane. The main advantage of subways over trams and fully segregated bus lanes is capacity, so if you’re not doing that...
- jcranmer 6y ago
  Loop is basically a personal rapid transit system, which is an idea that keeps getting proposed for basically the reasons you cite, but the few implementations that do exist have generally underwhelmed.
- andbberger 6y ago
  Waiting 10-30 minutes for a train isn't a technological consequence of rail transportation, it's a symptom of a catastrophically inept transit agency. What's stopping, say, Caltrain, from running trains at peak frequency all day? Incompetent leadership. They have the trains (which spend all day sitting idle _at_ terminus platforms), the have the crew (who also sit idle during the day), they have the capacity to run more trains off peak. They made a deliberate choice to not run the trains. You might make the case that running more trains off-peak would increase maintenance costs. But I would wager that such maintenance costs pale in comparison to the cost of building enough platforms at your downtown termini to store trains all day. Moreover who cares about maintenance costs? It's insane to think that public transit should be profitable. loop is an elitist perversion of transit
  - jcranmer 6y ago
    > You might make the case that running more trains off-peak would increase maintenance costs. Alon Levy has done the math [1] and found that providing extra off-peak service is about 20% the cost of providing extra peak service, since the capital costs and labor costs dominate the actual operational costs. [1] https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/01/22/base-train-service-is-cheap-peak-train-service-is-expensive/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2018/01/22/base-train-ser...
    - andbberger 6y ago
      Yup essentially getting all of that directly from Alon's various posts on Caltrain's incompetence.
  - nick_kline 6y ago
    Well, they don't run them all day because of the cost of the use of the trains and the cost of the crews. The crews can't be paid all day to do nothing.
    - andbberger 6y ago
      The crews can absolutely be paid all day to do nothing.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  > Scheduling and routing. Not waiting 10-30 minutes for the next train depending on time of day. Subway systems are normally run at higher frequency than that. Those are more suburban commuter rail frequencies. > Not stopping anywhere but your destination. What if someone else stops in the tunnel in front of you. > No connections or changeovers. Only one tunnel depth?
- sudosysgen 6y ago
  Our subway system in Montreal runs at a frequency of anywhere from 2 minutes to 7 minutes. There are even faster ones.
  - Ajedi32 6y ago
    That's still 2 to 7 minutes longer than a Loop tunnel. And that also only addresses half of the GP's comment (scheduling).
    - sudosysgen 6y ago
      Yep, except that in order to match the capacity of the Montreal metro system you would need to have a car departing every 2 seconds, which is impossible.
      - Ajedi32 6y ago
        One car every 2 seconds sounds totally plausible. In fact, that number actually seems pretty low to me. A single lane/tunnel should be able to handle automated cars traveling at a 2-second following distance no problem, so that just leaves loading/unloading as a potential bottleneck. How many on-ramps do you think it would take to reach a capacity of 0.5 cars/second? I'm really curious as to what sort of problems you're envisioning which would make that "impossible".
        liability 6y ago
        How many amusement parks can load a ride car once every two seconds? Even continuously moving ski lifts aren't anywhere close to that and that's basically ideal conditions where the seat is delivered straight to your butt, and most users can reasonable be expected to be fit and coordinated. In the real world, people dawdle. You'd probably need dozens of loading lanes to reach .5/s, which means the stations are very large and expensive caverns.
        Ajedi32 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

flukus 6y ago

So a subway but only for 8 people?