48 ms·

You're assuming that women and men are on equal footing, physically. When you politely ask someone to stop invading your space, it's backed by your ability to p

You're assuming that women and men are on equal footing, physically. When you politely ask someone to stop invading your space, it's backed by your ability to push them out of it. If you're 6'2" and the other guy is 6'2" you're on pretty even footing. But if you're 5'1" and the guy is 6'2" you're not on even footing and shouldn't be expected to act like you are. This is to say nothing of how physically intimidating it is for someone to just enter your personal space like that. And when you're in an enclosed space like a carriage, you have no escape route. So in my mind stabbing the guy in the arm was pretty mellow. There's no telling where things would have gone from there. If you're at all concerned about getting stabbed in the arm, maybe get to know the other person before you invade their space.

epicureanideal 6y ago
I think stabbing someone has a very high chance of making the situation far more dangerous than just asking the person to stop. Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Women and children first into the lifeboats, remember? Most men do care about women as a class and even elevate their care for them above their concern for themselves. Also, although people might give a 5'1" man some leeway regarding using a stick against a 6'2" man if the 6'2" man attacked him first, I don't think anyone would find it acceptable for the 5'1" man to INITIATE the violence using a weapon merely because of the POSSIBILITY that the larger man might attack him. If you're in a bar and a large man says something insulting to you, do you just skip to attacking him because, if you say something insulting back he might attack you? If you do, I'm pretty sure you're the one who will be charged with a crime. You know, sometimes people who ask for directions then demand your wallet. Should I just attack everyone who approaches me for directions, because they might be a thief?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- whatshisface 6y ago
  >Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Is that really true?
  - spanhandler 6y ago
    Heavily testified as a norm in early 20th century film, though of course that doesn't mean it was in reality.
  - notsureaboutpg 6y ago
    It is the way Emmett Till died
  - dx87 6y ago
    No, it's not. I just finished reading a book where the author talks about growing up in the late 70s, early 80s, and one night his father started beating his mom with the buckle end of his belt. She managed to hit the panic alarm at their house, and when the police showed up, they police didn't even talk to her, even though she was standing there with blood running down her face. The father just told them that she got out of line, and he had to teach her who's in charge, and the police nodded and chuckled, then left.
    - epicureanideal 6y ago
      What book? Also, while it is probably true that there were sometimes inappropriate police responses to domestic violence in the past, that is not the general case of a woman screaming for help in a public place from a strange man. Even so, the story you're talking about sounds very unusual. Also note that the honest research since the 1970s shows that domestic violence is two-way, and that women initiate the majority of violence. Reference: Thirty Years Denying the Evidence on Gender Symmetry in Partner Violence, Murray Strauss, University of New Hampshire. Summarizes results from 200 studies. Around the same time, 1970s, Erin Pizzey, creator of the first womens' shelters in the UK, observed (as she wrote in her book) that many of the women that came to her for shelter were as violent or more violent than the men they were escaping from.
- jschwartzi 6y ago
  I think you're taking this pretty far down the slippery slope. Someone who "mashes" up to you by taking advantage of the carriage bouncing and then slips his arm around you without saying anything is very different from someone asking you for directions. I could see the former being a prelude to assault, while the latter wouldn't be.
  - cryptoz 6y ago
    The former is not a "prelude" to assault, it is assault.
    - cosmojg 6y ago
      For the uninformed, assault is "an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact."[0] [0] https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault
  - floren 6y ago
    "Got a light?" is a classic prelude to a mugging.
- rbecker 6y ago
  > Women and children first into the lifeboats, remember? More than just an empty phrase: of the passengers on the Titanic, 72% of adult women survived, 50% of children, and 16% of adult men: http://www.icyousee.org/titanic.html http://www.icyousee.org/titanic.html
  - marchenko 6y ago
    The Titanic is actually notable for being an exception to the rule of every man for himself, largely attributed to the action's of the Titanic's captain: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/women-and-children-first-its-every-man-for-himself-on-a-sinking-ship-7987975.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/women...
    - rbecker 6y ago
      Huh, you're right. And https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv12.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv12.pdf shows rate of serious violent crime victimization in 2012 was 9.4 men vs 6.6 women per 1000 persons (with the rates even closer in previous years). I guess society is more egalitarian than I thought.
Sniffnoy 6y ago
> You're assuming that women and men are on equal footing, physically. When you politely ask someone to stop invading your space, it's backed by your ability to push them out of it. Disagre; it's generally backed by one's ability to raise a stink and possibly even call the police. That is to say, it relies on the force you can summon from having people (whether bystanders or professionals) recognize that you're in the right and rally to join you, not your own personal capacity for force.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Igelau 6y ago
> an enclosed space like a carriage, you have no escape route You make it sound like she was cornered and in mortal danger. The carriage was crowded with people. Yes, he was (likely) a creepy dirtbag who deserved to be punished. STABBING SOMEONE WITH A FOOT OF SHARP STEEL IS NOT "MELLOW"! It's nuclear. You either have a frightfully diminished understanding of the potential lethality of stabbing someone, or you have a psychotically draconian image of justice.

epicureanideal 6y ago

I think stabbing someone has a very high chance of making the situation far more dangerous than just asking the person to stop. Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Women and children first into the lifeboats, remember? Most men do care about women as a class and even elevate their care for them above their concern for themselves. Also, although people might give a 5'1" man some leeway regarding using a stick against a 6'2" man if the 6'2" man attacked him first, I don't think anyone would find it acceptable for the 5'1" man to INITIATE the violence using a weapon merely because of the POSSIBILITY that the larger man might attack him. If you're in a bar and a large man says something insulting to you, do you just skip to attacking him because, if you say something insulting back he might attack you? If you do, I'm pretty sure you're the one who will be charged with a crime. You know, sometimes people who ask for directions then demand your wallet. Should I just attack everyone who approaches me for directions, because they might be a thief?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
whatshisface 6y ago
>Also, it has been true for centuries that a woman screaming "help!" would draw the attention of all the men in the area (for example the carriage driver in this case) who would be eager to beat the other man to a pulp if he didn't stop harassing her. Is that really true?
- spanhandler 6y ago
  Heavily testified as a norm in early 20th century film, though of course that doesn't mean it was in reality.
- notsureaboutpg 6y ago
  It is the way Emmett Till died
- dx87 6y ago
  No, it's not. I just finished reading a book where the author talks about growing up in the late 70s, early 80s, and one night his father started beating his mom with the buckle end of his belt. She managed to hit the panic alarm at their house, and when the police showed up, they police didn't even talk to her, even though she was standing there with blood running down her face. The father just told them that she got out of line, and he had to teach her who's in charge, and the police nodded and chuckled, then left.
  - epicureanideal 6y ago
    What book? Also, while it is probably true that there were sometimes inappropriate police responses to domestic violence in the past, that is not the general case of a woman screaming for help in a public place from a strange man. Even so, the story you're talking about sounds very unusual. Also note that the honest research since the 1970s shows that domestic violence is two-way, and that women initiate the majority of violence. Reference: Thirty Years Denying the Evidence on Gender Symmetry in Partner Violence, Murray Strauss, University of New Hampshire. Summarizes results from 200 studies. Around the same time, 1970s, Erin Pizzey, creator of the first womens' shelters in the UK, observed (as she wrote in her book) that many of the women that came to her for shelter were as violent or more violent than the men they were escaping from.
jschwartzi 6y ago
I think you're taking this pretty far down the slippery slope. Someone who "mashes" up to you by taking advantage of the carriage bouncing and then slips his arm around you without saying anything is very different from someone asking you for directions. I could see the former being a prelude to assault, while the latter wouldn't be.
- cryptoz 6y ago
  The former is not a "prelude" to assault, it is assault.
  - cosmojg 6y ago
    For the uninformed, assault is "an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact."[0] [0] https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Assault
- floren 6y ago
  "Got a light?" is a classic prelude to a mugging.
rbecker 6y ago
> Women and children first into the lifeboats, remember? More than just an empty phrase: of the passengers on the Titanic, 72% of adult women survived, 50% of children, and 16% of adult men: http://www.icyousee.org/titanic.html http://www.icyousee.org/titanic.html
- marchenko 6y ago
  The Titanic is actually notable for being an exception to the rule of every man for himself, largely attributed to the action's of the Titanic's captain: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/women-and-children-first-its-every-man-for-himself-on-a-sinking-ship-7987975.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/world-history/women...
  - rbecker 6y ago
    Huh, you're right. And https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv12.pdf https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv12.pdf shows rate of serious violent crime victimization in 2012 was 9.4 men vs 6.6 women per 1000 persons (with the rates even closer in previous years). I guess society is more egalitarian than I thought.

Sniffnoy 6y ago

> You're assuming that women and men are on equal footing, physically. When you politely ask someone to stop invading your space, it's backed by your ability to push them out of it. Disagre; it's generally backed by one's ability to raise a stink and possibly even call the police. That is to say, it relies on the force you can summon from having people (whether bystanders or professionals) recognize that you're in the right and rally to join you, not your own personal capacity for force.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Igelau 6y ago

> an enclosed space like a carriage, you have no escape route You make it sound like she was cornered and in mortal danger. The carriage was crowded with people. Yes, he was (likely) a creepy dirtbag who deserved to be punished. STABBING SOMEONE WITH A FOOT OF SHARP STEEL IS NOT "MELLOW"! It's nuclear. You either have a frightfully diminished understanding of the potential lethality of stabbing someone, or you have a psychotically draconian image of justice.