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So Uber driver’s are too dumb to realize they’re being paid unfair wages? Why would anyone work for such a company if they have better alternatives?

baron_harkonnen 6y ago
And if they don't have better alternatives? Sometimes I actively look forward to the tech job market collapsing.
- qeternity 6y ago
  > And if they don't have better alternatives? Then it would seem applying more pressure to their already unprofitable employer is an unwise move...
  - asdff 6y ago
    Better not ban child labor if it puts kids out of work, right?
    - s1artibartfast 6y ago
      That depends on the environment. In many countries, when you ban legal child labor, the children have to turn to illegal jobs such as prostitution. Most people dont work for uber because it is fun. They are doing it because their other options are worse.
    - benmller313 6y ago
      The fact that we prevent children from consenting to something that may be harmful to them doesn't mean we need a nanny state to protect everyone.
nrmitchi 6y ago
I am not going to state that "drivers are too dumb", but as far as I know it is definitely not clear that it is clear to a (potential) driver what they are actually being paid after all expenses. It is not unreasonable that any given person will not immediately understand the full cost of being a driver, including insurance (like ensuring that their existing auto insurance is even valid if you're ever driving for a company), gas, vehicle maintenance, general vehicle wear-and-tear, as well as any required cleaning/upkeep. It's not unreasonable that someone who is driving for Uber/Lyft (especially if, as you claim, they have no better alternatives) is aware of the deferred costs that they are incurring.
- qeternity 6y ago
  > It's not unreasonable... You mean unlikely. It is absolutely unreasonable. But these arguments just don’t stand up. In the early days, perhaps this is true. But everyone is massively aware of these arguments now and what you’re still arguing is that people need to be protected from themselves. Think about what you’re saying: your back-of-the-envelope conjecture without any empirical evidence should be taken over the millions of people who work in these industries, not just for a month before realizing they’ve been hosed, but for years and years. How about this: let’s presume all of what you say is true. What if after all those costs are accounted for, it’s still profitable for many people to drive for Uber.
  - mrunkel 6y ago
    If a person is dying of thirst, they'll stick drink brackish water if it's all their offered. What is egregious about uber is that they themselves are tapping into the clean water source, extracting the best part for themselves and then leaving only brackish water for all the uber drivers. If you believe the end goal of a society is to extract every last bit of value from its members, then yes, Uber is great. If you believe the end goal of society is to provide some sort of dignified life for its members, then I don't see how you can justify what Uber does. > How about this: let’s presume all of what you say is true. What if after all those costs are accounted for, it’s still profitable for many people to drive for Uber. There have many studies done about what someone can earn from Uber. Even without the externalities nobody is going to get rich from Uber. With the externalities, they are barely making a subsistence wage. Lastly, I would argue that even if working for Uber is a net negative, in the short term (even years) they can extract some value from an assets they already have (their vehicle and their time) against costs in the future. For someone who needs cash today, this is a acceptable tradeoff.
    - qeternity 6y ago
      > What is egregious about uber is that they themselves are tapping into the clean water source, extracting the best part for themselves and then leaving only brackish water for all the uber drivers. Please explain this. Uber is wildly unprofitable. Whether or not you think Uber drivers should earn more, they’re certainly not losing money. Between the drivers, the riders, and Uber...Uber has by far the worst position in this game. Now, they wrote the rules so I certainly won’t lose a wink of sleep over it, but this idea that Uber is making out well in all of this is ludicrous. The riders make out the best and any future changes will be zero sum between riders are drivers. Uber simply can’t absorb more losses than they already do.
SrslyJosh 6y ago
> So Uber driver’s are too dumb to realize they’re being paid unfair wages? Why would anyone work for such a company if they have better alternatives? I think you've answered your own question here.
zouhair 6y ago
Rent, food, clothes, medication...
smsm42 6y ago
The main SF organizer for forcing Uber to classify drivers as employees, Mostafa Maklad, has been driving with Uber for six years. I don't think he's either stupid or unhappy to work for Uber. I think he just wants to be paid more, while doing exactly the same.

baron_harkonnen 6y ago

And if they don't have better alternatives? Sometimes I actively look forward to the tech job market collapsing.

qeternity 6y ago
> And if they don't have better alternatives? Then it would seem applying more pressure to their already unprofitable employer is an unwise move...
- asdff 6y ago
  Better not ban child labor if it puts kids out of work, right?
  - s1artibartfast 6y ago
    That depends on the environment. In many countries, when you ban legal child labor, the children have to turn to illegal jobs such as prostitution. Most people dont work for uber because it is fun. They are doing it because their other options are worse.
  - benmller313 6y ago
    The fact that we prevent children from consenting to something that may be harmful to them doesn't mean we need a nanny state to protect everyone.

nrmitchi 6y ago

I am not going to state that "drivers are too dumb", but as far as I know it is definitely not clear that it is clear to a (potential) driver what they are actually being paid after all expenses. It is not unreasonable that any given person will not immediately understand the full cost of being a driver, including insurance (like ensuring that their existing auto insurance is even valid if you're ever driving for a company), gas, vehicle maintenance, general vehicle wear-and-tear, as well as any required cleaning/upkeep. It's not unreasonable that someone who is driving for Uber/Lyft (especially if, as you claim, they have no better alternatives) is aware of the deferred costs that they are incurring.

qeternity 6y ago
> It's not unreasonable... You mean unlikely. It is absolutely unreasonable. But these arguments just don’t stand up. In the early days, perhaps this is true. But everyone is massively aware of these arguments now and what you’re still arguing is that people need to be protected from themselves. Think about what you’re saying: your back-of-the-envelope conjecture without any empirical evidence should be taken over the millions of people who work in these industries, not just for a month before realizing they’ve been hosed, but for years and years. How about this: let’s presume all of what you say is true. What if after all those costs are accounted for, it’s still profitable for many people to drive for Uber.
- mrunkel 6y ago
  If a person is dying of thirst, they'll stick drink brackish water if it's all their offered. What is egregious about uber is that they themselves are tapping into the clean water source, extracting the best part for themselves and then leaving only brackish water for all the uber drivers. If you believe the end goal of a society is to extract every last bit of value from its members, then yes, Uber is great. If you believe the end goal of society is to provide some sort of dignified life for its members, then I don't see how you can justify what Uber does. > How about this: let’s presume all of what you say is true. What if after all those costs are accounted for, it’s still profitable for many people to drive for Uber. There have many studies done about what someone can earn from Uber. Even without the externalities nobody is going to get rich from Uber. With the externalities, they are barely making a subsistence wage. Lastly, I would argue that even if working for Uber is a net negative, in the short term (even years) they can extract some value from an assets they already have (their vehicle and their time) against costs in the future. For someone who needs cash today, this is a acceptable tradeoff.
  - qeternity 6y ago
    > What is egregious about uber is that they themselves are tapping into the clean water source, extracting the best part for themselves and then leaving only brackish water for all the uber drivers. Please explain this. Uber is wildly unprofitable. Whether or not you think Uber drivers should earn more, they’re certainly not losing money. Between the drivers, the riders, and Uber...Uber has by far the worst position in this game. Now, they wrote the rules so I certainly won’t lose a wink of sleep over it, but this idea that Uber is making out well in all of this is ludicrous. The riders make out the best and any future changes will be zero sum between riders are drivers. Uber simply can’t absorb more losses than they already do.

SrslyJosh 6y ago

> So Uber driver’s are too dumb to realize they’re being paid unfair wages? Why would anyone work for such a company if they have better alternatives? I think you've answered your own question here.

zouhair 6y ago

Rent, food, clothes, medication...

smsm42 6y ago

The main SF organizer for forcing Uber to classify drivers as employees, Mostafa Maklad, has been driving with Uber for six years. I don't think he's either stupid or unhappy to work for Uber. I think he just wants to be paid more, while doing exactly the same.