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So now Craigslist needs to be regulated as an automobile dealer because it hooks up people selling cars to each other? Is Apple in the business of recording mus

So now Craigslist needs to be regulated as an automobile dealer because it hooks up people selling cars to each other? Is Apple in the business of recording music because it runs iTunes? Does DoorDash need to have their offices inspected for food safety because they run a market for food delivery. No. Craigslist operates a platform for selling cars, it doesn't actually sell cars itself. Apple doesn't actually make music (unless they runs studio they I don't know about), they run a market for artists and record companies to sell their own music. DoorDash operates a platform for restaurants to sell food, it doesn't actually sell food itself. Contrary to your insistence otherwise, running a platform that connects buyers and sellers of something is not the same thing as actually providing that good or service yourself. People say that it takes mental gymnastics to arrive at this conclusion. I see the opposite: how do you manage to convince yourself that people writing code at Uber are in the same line of business as getting behind the wheel of a taxi? How do people convince themselves that a PM at DoorDash works at a restaurant? Also, you misstate (or rather, only partially state) the description of their business in SEC filings. They describe themselves operating a market for food delivery and personal transportation. They are in the business of transportation and food delivery, but they are a in a different layer than the people actually driving cars. This is akin to saying Expedia is in the airline business. Yes, but they sell airline tickets they don't fly planes. Calling Uber a taxi company makes a out as much sense as saying Expedia is an airline. And for 3 & 4 this could easily be resolved by having driver set up their own LLCs. But I'm not convinced this is actually a requirement. Plenty of people are contractors and fill out 1099s without operating their own LLC or partnership or some other type of company.

gamblor956 6y ago
No, not sure how you even got there with Craigslist, and even if AB5 was relevant there's an exception for direct sales that would exempt craiglist and similar sites like ebay. AB5 doesn't apply outside of the worker classification context, so your rambling about Doordash and food safety regulations is just bizarre. You're right that DoorDash is in the food delivery business and so its delivery drivers would be its employees under AB5 (and thats what the underlying case decided). Door Dash is not in the food preparation business, so restaurant workers wouldn't be treated as DoorDash's workers. Contrary to your insistence otherwise, running a platform that connects buyers and sellers of something is not the same thing as actually providing that good or service yourself. People say that it takes mental gymnastics to arrive at this conclusion. I see the opposite: how do you manage to convince yourself that people writing code at Uber are in the same line of business as getting behind the wheel of a taxi? How do people convince themselves that a PM at DoorDash works at a restaurant? I agree that running a platform that connects buyers and sellers in a marketplace is not the same as providing that good/service itself, which is why Amazon Marketplace and eBay don't run afoul of AB5. But UBER/LYFT DOES NOT RUN A MARKETPLACE. They would have to make significant changes to their apps to be considered "marketplaces" by any reasonable or historic definition of the term. This is akin to saying Expedia is in the airline business. This is not at all like saying Expedia is in the airline business. Expedia operates like a marketplace. It buys inventory from airlines and hotels and resells them to customers. The ultimate commercial relationship is still between the customer and the airline/hotel. That is not the case with Uber/Lyft as they are currently structured: both the rider and the driver have the commercial relationship with Uber and it only exists through Uber. And for 3 & 4 this could easily be resolved by having driver set up their own LLCs. But I'm not convinced this is actually a requirement. Plenty of people are contractors and fill out 1099s without operating their own LLC or partnership or some other type of company. AB5 provides a lot of exemptions, so it's not necessary in every context. Rideshare drivers aren't one of the exemptions.
- manfredo 6y ago
  You're applying double standards here. If Expedia is not an airline, then Uber and Lyft aren't taxi companies. Uber and Lyft buy the services of independent drivers and resells them to customers. If the ultimate commercial relationship is between you and the hotel or airline when you book through Expedia, then it's just as fair to say that the ultimate commercial relationship is between the passenger and Uber/Lyft driver. Just like how Expedia's role is connect a customer with an airline and handle the payment transaction, Uber/Lyft's role is to connect a passenger with a driver and handle the payment transaction. Crucially, your statement that the commercial relationship only exists through Uber is patently false. Drivers can, and do, driver for different ride sharing companies. A passenger could hire a driver through Uber on one day, and hire the same driver through Lyft on the next.
  - james-mcelwain 6y ago
    > If the ultimate commercial relationship is between you and the hotel or airline when you book through Expedia, then it's just as fair to say that the ultimate commercial relationship is between the passenger and Uber/Lyft driver. When I book a flight through Expedia I enter a contract of carriage with the airline, not Expedia. This is a contractural matter, not just an abstract concept of "commercial relationship."
    - manfredo 6y ago
      And when you take an Uber, you enter a contract of carriage with the Uber driver. Uber drivers have to have contract of carriage permits for this reason.
      - gamblor956 6y ago
        You do not enter into a contract of carriage with the Uber driver. At no point in using Uber or Lyft does the app have you agree to a specific contract with the driver, which is required for the contract of carriage to apply... (In contrast, with taxis, signage in the vehicle indicates that proceeding with a ride does indicate acquiescence to the standard terms locally governing taxi services.)

gamblor956 6y ago

No, not sure how you even got there with Craigslist, and even if AB5 was relevant there's an exception for direct sales that would exempt craiglist and similar sites like ebay. AB5 doesn't apply outside of the worker classification context, so your rambling about Doordash and food safety regulations is just bizarre. You're right that DoorDash is in the food delivery business and so its delivery drivers would be its employees under AB5 (and thats what the underlying case decided). Door Dash is not in the food preparation business, so restaurant workers wouldn't be treated as DoorDash's workers. Contrary to your insistence otherwise, running a platform that connects buyers and sellers of something is not the same thing as actually providing that good or service yourself. People say that it takes mental gymnastics to arrive at this conclusion. I see the opposite: how do you manage to convince yourself that people writing code at Uber are in the same line of business as getting behind the wheel of a taxi? How do people convince themselves that a PM at DoorDash works at a restaurant? I agree that running a platform that connects buyers and sellers in a marketplace is not the same as providing that good/service itself, which is why Amazon Marketplace and eBay don't run afoul of AB5. But UBER/LYFT DOES NOT RUN A MARKETPLACE. They would have to make significant changes to their apps to be considered "marketplaces" by any reasonable or historic definition of the term. This is akin to saying Expedia is in the airline business. This is not at all like saying Expedia is in the airline business. Expedia operates like a marketplace. It buys inventory from airlines and hotels and resells them to customers. The ultimate commercial relationship is still between the customer and the airline/hotel. That is not the case with Uber/Lyft as they are currently structured: both the rider and the driver have the commercial relationship with Uber and it only exists through Uber. And for 3 & 4 this could easily be resolved by having driver set up their own LLCs. But I'm not convinced this is actually a requirement. Plenty of people are contractors and fill out 1099s without operating their own LLC or partnership or some other type of company. AB5 provides a lot of exemptions, so it's not necessary in every context. Rideshare drivers aren't one of the exemptions.

manfredo 6y ago
You're applying double standards here. If Expedia is not an airline, then Uber and Lyft aren't taxi companies. Uber and Lyft buy the services of independent drivers and resells them to customers. If the ultimate commercial relationship is between you and the hotel or airline when you book through Expedia, then it's just as fair to say that the ultimate commercial relationship is between the passenger and Uber/Lyft driver. Just like how Expedia's role is connect a customer with an airline and handle the payment transaction, Uber/Lyft's role is to connect a passenger with a driver and handle the payment transaction. Crucially, your statement that the commercial relationship only exists through Uber is patently false. Drivers can, and do, driver for different ride sharing companies. A passenger could hire a driver through Uber on one day, and hire the same driver through Lyft on the next.
- james-mcelwain 6y ago
  > If the ultimate commercial relationship is between you and the hotel or airline when you book through Expedia, then it's just as fair to say that the ultimate commercial relationship is between the passenger and Uber/Lyft driver. When I book a flight through Expedia I enter a contract of carriage with the airline, not Expedia. This is a contractural matter, not just an abstract concept of "commercial relationship."
  - manfredo 6y ago
    And when you take an Uber, you enter a contract of carriage with the Uber driver. Uber drivers have to have contract of carriage permits for this reason.
    - gamblor956 6y ago
      You do not enter into a contract of carriage with the Uber driver. At no point in using Uber or Lyft does the app have you agree to a specific contract with the driver, which is required for the contract of carriage to apply... (In contrast, with taxis, signage in the vehicle indicates that proceeding with a ride does indicate acquiescence to the standard terms locally governing taxi services.)