6 ms·

I am not Chinese and do think that the amount of accusations is much larger than the body of evidence to support them, I'd guess there are others of similar opi

I am not Chinese and do think that the amount of accusations is much larger than the body of evidence to support them, I'd guess there are others of similar opinion, some of them Chinese, others not. What I dislike is people generally assuming that I somehow agree with every single thing Huawei, or the CCP for that matter, has ever done.

totalZero 6y ago
The body of evidence that Huawei steals intellectual property is quite substantial. If you want to read about it, you can start with these: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1124996/download https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1124996/downl... https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-correcting-the-record https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-c... https://amlawdaily.typepad.com/motorolahuawei.pdf https://amlawdaily.typepad.com/motorolahuawei.pdf https://www.mpegla.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/FINAL-Huawei-ZTE-Infringement-PrsRls-2018-11-16.pdf https://www.mpegla.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/FINAL-Huaw...
- AsyncAwait 6y ago
  I am looking for extensive evidence that they backdoor their equipment and feed data to the CCP. As far as the "intellectual property" goes, it is used by the winners to kick down the ladder they themselves climbed. The U.S. used to steal from Europe while it was developing, now suddenly IP matters a lot. The Japanese used to steal quite a bit of IP, yet Nintendo is now super hawkish to protect its own. Chinese companies will get overly protective of its own IP once they sufficiently develop. All in all, is a well known circle that may signal it's time to rethink how IP is currently structured and enforced around the world.
  - frequentnapper 6y ago
    What? Blatantly stealing corporate secrets by spying or in some cases walking in and stealing hardware is ok now in case of competition? What about enslaving uighurs and making money off of them and then using that money to buy real estate in other countries and pricing the locals out of the housing market?
  - throwaway45349 6y ago
    Huawei doesn't need "backdoors" for the CCP, because they are CCP. The higher-ups are undoubtedly all party members.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      I’m sure a lot of normal employees are CCP members too. CCP has 90 million members after all. Statistically, 1 in 5 Chinese has family members that are CCP member. So I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Are you proposing that we ban 20% of the Chinese population?
      - fock 6y ago
        Yes? But oh wait, they are useful (so were the nazis, some thought...)
        AsyncAwait 6y ago
        Am not sure the party membership works the way you seem to imply. Just because someone is a member of the CCP doesn't mean they'll steal tech, spy for China or even agree with the CCP on many issues for that matter. I'd guess it's more like getting some sort of a certificate that makes you more prestigious?
        fock 6y ago
        so if people want to work outside of china, better not get that certificate if you don't want to be held accountable for supporting an authoritorian government. Easy. As for the spying: it's relatively common knowledge that the chinese government really likes to use the fact that someone might have relatives in mainland china to convice people that they should spy for them. So my guess is that people doing this just for the "prestige" don't even need this kind of stuff...
        AsyncAwait 6y ago
        > so if people want to work outside of china, better not get that certificate if you don't want to be held accountable for supporting an authoritorian government. Easy. The U.S. government killed thousands of civilians in the Middle East over the last decade with taxpayer money. So if you don't support killing civilians, stop paying taxes? Sometimes it's not as easy. > So my guess is that people doing this just for the "prestige" don't even need this kind of stuff... I get your point, but maybe "prestige" isn't the right word. If it's easier to function in society if you're a member and does not require you to commit anything immoral (at least not directly), would you join? My bet would be on yes.
  - foobiekr 6y ago
    Ah, the whataboutism posters to defend China have shown up.
    - dang 6y ago
      Posting like this is not allowed on HN. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. For more please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24145915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24145915 elsewhere in this thread, as well as these past explanations: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=whataboutism%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=chin%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=astroturf%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
  - totalZero 6y ago
    Would you mind pointing me to some specific cases of US technology companies stealing IP from European companies as the US was industrializing, or Japanese technology companies (including Nintendo) stealing IP? It is often more informative to speak about specific cases, rather than generalizing based on inexplicit information. Businesses use IP laws to protect their own property rights. Whether you call the property owners "winners" is up to you, but that doesn't change the spirit or letter of IP laws.
    - Merrill 6y ago
      We Were Pirates, Too >The ship carrying Francis Cabot Lowell and his family home from England in the summer of 1812 was intercepted by a British war squadron, which held the passengers and crew for some days at the British base at Halifax, Canada. Lowell’s baggage was subject to several intensive searches, for his captors had been warned that he may have stolen designs for power textile weaving machinery, a serious crime in England. Lowell, indeed, had done just that — but, aware of the risk, had committed the designs to memory. https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/
      - DetroitThrow 6y ago
        Interesting paper and I think anyone should read if only for the stories told, but if the only cases happened in the 1800s, then I don't think this is particularly relevant for deciding whether we should enforce consequences on foreign companies for IP infringement or not. The US also permitted racial slavery in that era - we ceased commerce both voluntarily and in an official manner with South Africa over their racially stratified society in 1990. Why would we treat China differently than Apartheid South Africa because of something that happened 200 years ago?
        sudosysgen 6y ago
        The US has been dominant economically since the late 1800s, when their incentives switch to protecting IP. If the theory of the above poster that IP is used to pull the ladder up is true then it does make sense. Incidentally, US Foreign policy (as well as that of any nation) even in 2020, when you take justifications, stunningly aligned with US national interest. Make of that what you will.
  - product50 6y ago
    I actually think you are Chinese. Why lie to make your point?
    - DetroitThrow 6y ago
      You should assume good faith. I know several non-Chinese both on HN and in real life who defend these same points.
    - totalZero 6y ago
      Chinese people are allowed to have opinions and argue their beliefs as well, so your suspicion here is immaterial.
    - dang 6y ago
      We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines egregiously. Personal attacks are not ok. Smears like this are particularly not ok. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The truth is that the HN community is diverse and divided, with plenty of people on all sides of this issue. Attacking people personally (let alone nationally, ethnically, or racially) simply because they disagree with you is the epitome of what we don't want here. This is not a China issue, it's a Hacker News issue, an internet issue, and frankly a human issue. Plenty of past explanation here: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=chin%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=astroturf%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
- blackrock 6y ago
  This is already known. Yes, they might have expropriated technology from 30 years ago, when they first started out. So what? They were caught, and they paid up the price for their malfeasance. They settled outside of court with Cisco. Cisco doesn't even complain about this anymore, since they got a pretty penny from Huawei for it. And they are not the only company that started out doing something shady. There are plenty of other examples of American companies that have done things in their past that are also shady. Why don't you start with something more recent? Like, their 5G technology? Unless of course, your premise is that they also have a time machine and traveled into the future, and stole this 5G technology from Cisco as well.

totalZero 6y ago

The body of evidence that Huawei steals intellectual property is quite substantial. If you want to read about it, you can start with these: https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1124996/download https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1124996/downl... https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-correcting-the-record https://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-c... https://amlawdaily.typepad.com/motorolahuawei.pdf https://amlawdaily.typepad.com/motorolahuawei.pdf https://www.mpegla.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/FINAL-Huawei-ZTE-Infringement-PrsRls-2018-11-16.pdf https://www.mpegla.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/FINAL-Huaw...

AsyncAwait 6y ago
I am looking for extensive evidence that they backdoor their equipment and feed data to the CCP. As far as the "intellectual property" goes, it is used by the winners to kick down the ladder they themselves climbed. The U.S. used to steal from Europe while it was developing, now suddenly IP matters a lot. The Japanese used to steal quite a bit of IP, yet Nintendo is now super hawkish to protect its own. Chinese companies will get overly protective of its own IP once they sufficiently develop. All in all, is a well known circle that may signal it's time to rethink how IP is currently structured and enforced around the world.
- frequentnapper 6y ago
  What? Blatantly stealing corporate secrets by spying or in some cases walking in and stealing hardware is ok now in case of competition? What about enslaving uighurs and making money off of them and then using that money to buy real estate in other countries and pricing the locals out of the housing market?
- throwaway45349 6y ago
  Huawei doesn't need "backdoors" for the CCP, because they are CCP. The higher-ups are undoubtedly all party members.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    I’m sure a lot of normal employees are CCP members too. CCP has 90 million members after all. Statistically, 1 in 5 Chinese has family members that are CCP member. So I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Are you proposing that we ban 20% of the Chinese population?
    - fock 6y ago
      Yes? But oh wait, they are useful (so were the nazis, some thought...)
      - AsyncAwait 6y ago
        Am not sure the party membership works the way you seem to imply. Just because someone is a member of the CCP doesn't mean they'll steal tech, spy for China or even agree with the CCP on many issues for that matter. I'd guess it's more like getting some sort of a certificate that makes you more prestigious?
        fock 6y ago
        so if people want to work outside of china, better not get that certificate if you don't want to be held accountable for supporting an authoritorian government. Easy. As for the spying: it's relatively common knowledge that the chinese government really likes to use the fact that someone might have relatives in mainland china to convice people that they should spy for them. So my guess is that people doing this just for the "prestige" don't even need this kind of stuff...
        AsyncAwait 6y ago
        > so if people want to work outside of china, better not get that certificate if you don't want to be held accountable for supporting an authoritorian government. Easy. The U.S. government killed thousands of civilians in the Middle East over the last decade with taxpayer money. So if you don't support killing civilians, stop paying taxes? Sometimes it's not as easy. > So my guess is that people doing this just for the "prestige" don't even need this kind of stuff... I get your point, but maybe "prestige" isn't the right word. If it's easier to function in society if you're a member and does not require you to commit anything immoral (at least not directly), would you join? My bet would be on yes.
- foobiekr 6y ago
  Ah, the whataboutism posters to defend China have shown up.
  - dang 6y ago
    Posting like this is not allowed on HN. Please read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. For more please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24145915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24145915 elsewhere in this thread, as well as these past explanations: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=whataboutism%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=chin%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=astroturf%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
- totalZero 6y ago
  Would you mind pointing me to some specific cases of US technology companies stealing IP from European companies as the US was industrializing, or Japanese technology companies (including Nintendo) stealing IP? It is often more informative to speak about specific cases, rather than generalizing based on inexplicit information. Businesses use IP laws to protect their own property rights. Whether you call the property owners "winners" is up to you, but that doesn't change the spirit or letter of IP laws.
  - Merrill 6y ago
    We Were Pirates, Too >The ship carrying Francis Cabot Lowell and his family home from England in the summer of 1812 was intercepted by a British war squadron, which held the passengers and crew for some days at the British base at Halifax, Canada. Lowell’s baggage was subject to several intensive searches, for his captors had been warned that he may have stolen designs for power textile weaving machinery, a serious crime in England. Lowell, indeed, had done just that — but, aware of the risk, had committed the designs to memory. https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2012/12/06/we-were-pirates-too/
    - DetroitThrow 6y ago
      Interesting paper and I think anyone should read if only for the stories told, but if the only cases happened in the 1800s, then I don't think this is particularly relevant for deciding whether we should enforce consequences on foreign companies for IP infringement or not. The US also permitted racial slavery in that era - we ceased commerce both voluntarily and in an official manner with South Africa over their racially stratified society in 1990. Why would we treat China differently than Apartheid South Africa because of something that happened 200 years ago?
      - sudosysgen 6y ago
        The US has been dominant economically since the late 1800s, when their incentives switch to protecting IP. If the theory of the above poster that IP is used to pull the ladder up is true then it does make sense. Incidentally, US Foreign policy (as well as that of any nation) even in 2020, when you take justifications, stunningly aligned with US national interest. Make of that what you will.
- product50 6y ago
  I actually think you are Chinese. Why lie to make your point?
  - DetroitThrow 6y ago
    You should assume good faith. I know several non-Chinese both on HN and in real life who defend these same points.
  - totalZero 6y ago
    Chinese people are allowed to have opinions and argue their beliefs as well, so your suspicion here is immaterial.
  - dang 6y ago
    We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines egregiously. Personal attacks are not ok. Smears like this are particularly not ok. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The truth is that the HN community is diverse and divided, with plenty of people on all sides of this issue. Attacking people personally (let alone nationally, ethnically, or racially) simply because they disagree with you is the epitome of what we don't want here. This is not a China issue, it's a Hacker News issue, an internet issue, and frankly a human issue. Plenty of past explanation here: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=chin%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&type=comment&dateRange=a... https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=astroturf%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
blackrock 6y ago
This is already known. Yes, they might have expropriated technology from 30 years ago, when they first started out. So what? They were caught, and they paid up the price for their malfeasance. They settled outside of court with Cisco. Cisco doesn't even complain about this anymore, since they got a pretty penny from Huawei for it. And they are not the only company that started out doing something shady. There are plenty of other examples of American companies that have done things in their past that are also shady. Why don't you start with something more recent? Like, their 5G technology? Unless of course, your premise is that they also have a time machine and traveled into the future, and stole this 5G technology from Cisco as well.