7 ms·

You can work as a factory worker and still require internet access for scheduling days off, getting payroll information, etc. In fact, it's likely that people

You can work as a factory worker and still require internet access for scheduling days off, getting payroll information, etc. In fact, it's likely that people not working desk jobs are those most in need of home internet access, as they might not be provided such at work.

zdragnar 6y ago
For most of those functions a smart phone or a local library would suffice. I read "can't do our jobs" as being "literally cannot complete work or perform on-paid-time duties".
- pwinnski 6y ago
  A smart phone is still an internet connection at home. It's possible that some of the 70% are not considering their local library, though.
  - inetknght 6y ago
    > A smart phone is still an internet connection at home. I don't use my personal phone for work. Anyone who does use their personal phone for work is being abused by their employer.
    - Splognosticus 6y ago
      This is an overly broad statement. Everywhere I've worked where I'm expected to be reachable by phone offered a stipend to pay for the service. And all of them were respectful of my personal time. An abusive employer is going to make unreasonable demands of you, regardless of whether you use your personal phone for work.
      - inetknght 6y ago
        > Everywhere I've worked where I'm expected to be reachable by phone offered a stipend to pay for the service. Well your experience is more the exception than the rule today given my friends, family, and own anecdata. > An abusive employer is going to make unreasonable demands of you, regardless of whether you use your personal phone for work. Let me know when there's enough employers that most people without negotiating leverage can actually be employed by one that's not abusive.
    - notriddle 6y ago
      The argument you've parroted is against using your personal phone number for work. That's abusive, because it allows the employer to send you work when you're off the clock. Using your smartphone to log into your payroll site, or as the internet bridge to the company VPN, is not any different from using a broadband line and a laptop to do the same thing. Those systems shouldn't be able to interrupt you when you're not working, but they might still be accessed through a smartphone in lieu of a desktop or laptop.
      - inetknght 6y ago
        > you've parroted Parroting implies blind repeating. I honestly believe my statement though. It's not parroting. > That's abusive, because it allows the employer to send you work when you're off the clock. No, it's abusive when doing work functions requires the use of my personal phone. Accessing an employer's VPN should not be done using devices or services that are wholly owned and paid for by me. Allowing my employer to notify me, while I'm off the clock, of any work that's available or scheduling changes or emergencies definitely falls under personal devices can be used. But when the employer requires you to use your personal devices and personal internet service to actually do any function of that work then that's where you and I clearly disagree. > Using your smartphone to log into your payroll site Payroll sites necessarily must be accessible from outside of the work VPN: payroll sites' reporting ability must be accessible after my employment has been terminated. > or as the internet bridge to the company VPN Using someone's personal internet service or phone service is unethical. Employers should pay for the internet bridge to the company VPN and all devices and services necessary to connect to it. > is not any different from using a broadband line and a laptop to do the same thing Nope, it isn't. Who owns it though? > Those systems shouldn't be able to interrupt you when you're not working Indeed. > but they might still be accessed through a smartphone in lieu of a desktop or laptop. Sure, but who owns it?
      - mulmen 6y ago
        I use my personal phone number as my pager when I am oncall. That doesn't feel abusive.
  - boneitis 6y ago
    The entire public library network is closed out where I'm at (save for curbside pickups). Another kneejerk thought also suggests that whatever few(?) that are open might take on increased traffic, at odds with distancing guidelines/mandates.
  - wsinks 6y ago
    How does a library help in 2020? Going anywhere but your home is unreliable during shelter in place orders. So if you don't have an internet connection at home, you don't have an internet connection. Also, resiliency is a good thing. It is not redundancy if the two services have different business continuity profiles.
- vidanay 6y ago
  That's an incredibly limited view of the subject. I could theoretically write code with a laptop from the back of a camel in the Sahara desert. That doesn't mean it qualifies as "able to do my job".
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- nitwit005 6y ago
  I suspect the poll answers would be different if they presented more nuanced options than the three choices in the pie chart.
- mattnewton 6y ago
  Yes, and for many people that smartphone is their home internet connection.
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  Sure, but... not everywhere has a local library. Parts of Indiana do not, and if you aren't in the library's tax district, you might have to pay to use the library to get a library card, which allows you to use the computers/internet. To make matters worse, in rural areas libraries might be in the next town over and have short hours. In one city, their summer hours were basically 10-3: During the summer, they closed at 6. They had very limited hours on saturday and were always closed on Sunday. You could, quite literally, work most of the time they were open. And for more fun, they only had limited space for computers. If there was a wait, you only had 30 minutes of time.
  - reaperducer 6y ago
    You should see the library that serves the Las Vegas Strip. I went there to use the wifi last year. It's in a terrible neighborhood. It's smaller than my bedroom. There are four computers, and according to the librarian on duty, they're occupied from open to closing every day, so if you want to use one you have to line up before it opens. People who say, "Just use the library" are people who have never tried to just use a library.
- Nextgrid 6y ago
  Entering any kind of credentials or confidential information into a public computer is (or should be) a big no-no.
cm2187 6y ago
Even a plumber or electrician will spend the evening sending invoices by email, discussing future bookings, etc.
- eli 6y ago
  Ordering parts, dispatching jobs, looking up service manuals, applying for permits...
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
People like that could get by with dial up if people like the ones reading this comment would stop loading 80MB of JS just so they can save a couple lines of code. Edit: The dailup part was an exaggeration but if your web app doesn't suck 3g and two bars or a 1Mb down DSL pipe should be fine for most CRUD type business tasks that. There's no reason that signing in and signing up for a shift should take more bandwidth than Craigslist.
- emodendroket 6y ago
  They could even get by without the Internet if such business were all conducted on the phone. So what?
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    My point is that the kinds of CRUD and spreadsheet manipulation tasks that most people who don't work at a screen all day need to do on a screen can be done over a trivially tiny pipe if that pipe is used with at least a token amount of efficiency.
    - emodendroket 6y ago
      But they're not, for many reasons.
  - yodelshady 6y ago
    I'll preface this with noting it's a little odd to act as though adding 80 MB of unnecessary JS is a popular idea on HN. They couldn't if they needed to work asynchronously. Or if they couldn't speak or hear well over the phone, the likelihood of which approaches 1 if you have so much as a different accent. Or if you don't want the other person to hear your accent. It's a bit cliche maybe, but I know people who've benefited from all of those features of IP-based communication, and they're reasons to be happy about the Internet. And since just about any telecommunications system that transmits voice can be bullied into transmitting IP packets, there's really little cost.
parsimo2010 6y ago
So did factories not exist prior to the internet? How on earth did people get paid, coordinate shift changes, or ask their boss for time off back in the 1950s? I think the reaction from GP was likely due to a difference in how people interpret the meaning of the word can't, as in some people mean "I currently use the internet because non-internet solutions are inconvenient" vs "It's literally impossible to do my job without the internet or losing the internet would make my job completely irrelevant(such as being a dev on the Google search team)." I think that even for work from home jobs, if the internet disappeared tomorrow a lot of employers would figure out how to do the important stuff with non-internet solutions, like accepting longer business timelines, couriering paper documents, sending faxes (this might require getting fax machines and landlines for employees, but companies will pay for them if they need to), and having telephone meetings instead of Zoom. Some employers would probably cut employees/tasks that weren't adding as much value as the effort required to shift to non-internet solutions, but I don't think it would be as high as a literal interpretation of this survey would imply.
- SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
  What about people working for companies who's policies dictate that certain actions must be done through some internet system (eg time clocks, payroll, scheduling, etc). It might be physically possible to ask someone else to do some of these things for one, but it also might not be allowed. EG if all time off requests including sick days have to be entered in a web scheduling system, then it may not be possible to just do the old "ask the boss for the day off" and have it not be considered an unexcused absence by corporate higher-ups.
  - parsimo2010 6y ago
    If you're a remotely decent employee, your manager will figure out a workaround or help you get an exception to the policy. It's hard to find good help, and if you're fired because of a completely inflexible system where you have to clock in with an internet system, then you weren't really fired for the lack of internet, you were fired because management wanted an excuse to fire you.

zdragnar 6y ago

For most of those functions a smart phone or a local library would suffice. I read "can't do our jobs" as being "literally cannot complete work or perform on-paid-time duties".

pwinnski 6y ago
A smart phone is still an internet connection at home. It's possible that some of the 70% are not considering their local library, though.
- inetknght 6y ago
  > A smart phone is still an internet connection at home. I don't use my personal phone for work. Anyone who does use their personal phone for work is being abused by their employer.
  - Splognosticus 6y ago
    This is an overly broad statement. Everywhere I've worked where I'm expected to be reachable by phone offered a stipend to pay for the service. And all of them were respectful of my personal time. An abusive employer is going to make unreasonable demands of you, regardless of whether you use your personal phone for work.
    - inetknght 6y ago
      > Everywhere I've worked where I'm expected to be reachable by phone offered a stipend to pay for the service. Well your experience is more the exception than the rule today given my friends, family, and own anecdata. > An abusive employer is going to make unreasonable demands of you, regardless of whether you use your personal phone for work. Let me know when there's enough employers that most people without negotiating leverage can actually be employed by one that's not abusive.
  - notriddle 6y ago
    The argument you've parroted is against using your personal phone number for work. That's abusive, because it allows the employer to send you work when you're off the clock. Using your smartphone to log into your payroll site, or as the internet bridge to the company VPN, is not any different from using a broadband line and a laptop to do the same thing. Those systems shouldn't be able to interrupt you when you're not working, but they might still be accessed through a smartphone in lieu of a desktop or laptop.
    - inetknght 6y ago
      > you've parroted Parroting implies blind repeating. I honestly believe my statement though. It's not parroting. > That's abusive, because it allows the employer to send you work when you're off the clock. No, it's abusive when doing work functions requires the use of my personal phone. Accessing an employer's VPN should not be done using devices or services that are wholly owned and paid for by me. Allowing my employer to notify me, while I'm off the clock, of any work that's available or scheduling changes or emergencies definitely falls under personal devices can be used. But when the employer requires you to use your personal devices and personal internet service to actually do any function of that work then that's where you and I clearly disagree. > Using your smartphone to log into your payroll site Payroll sites necessarily must be accessible from outside of the work VPN: payroll sites' reporting ability must be accessible after my employment has been terminated. > or as the internet bridge to the company VPN Using someone's personal internet service or phone service is unethical. Employers should pay for the internet bridge to the company VPN and all devices and services necessary to connect to it. > is not any different from using a broadband line and a laptop to do the same thing Nope, it isn't. Who owns it though? > Those systems shouldn't be able to interrupt you when you're not working Indeed. > but they might still be accessed through a smartphone in lieu of a desktop or laptop. Sure, but who owns it?
    - mulmen 6y ago
      I use my personal phone number as my pager when I am oncall. That doesn't feel abusive.
- boneitis 6y ago
  The entire public library network is closed out where I'm at (save for curbside pickups). Another kneejerk thought also suggests that whatever few(?) that are open might take on increased traffic, at odds with distancing guidelines/mandates.
- wsinks 6y ago
  How does a library help in 2020? Going anywhere but your home is unreliable during shelter in place orders. So if you don't have an internet connection at home, you don't have an internet connection. Also, resiliency is a good thing. It is not redundancy if the two services have different business continuity profiles.
vidanay 6y ago
That's an incredibly limited view of the subject. I could theoretically write code with a laptop from the back of a camel in the Sahara desert. That doesn't mean it qualifies as "able to do my job".
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
nitwit005 6y ago
I suspect the poll answers would be different if they presented more nuanced options than the three choices in the pie chart.
mattnewton 6y ago
Yes, and for many people that smartphone is their home internet connection.
Broken_Hippo 6y ago
Sure, but... not everywhere has a local library. Parts of Indiana do not, and if you aren't in the library's tax district, you might have to pay to use the library to get a library card, which allows you to use the computers/internet. To make matters worse, in rural areas libraries might be in the next town over and have short hours. In one city, their summer hours were basically 10-3: During the summer, they closed at 6. They had very limited hours on saturday and were always closed on Sunday. You could, quite literally, work most of the time they were open. And for more fun, they only had limited space for computers. If there was a wait, you only had 30 minutes of time.
- reaperducer 6y ago
  You should see the library that serves the Las Vegas Strip. I went there to use the wifi last year. It's in a terrible neighborhood. It's smaller than my bedroom. There are four computers, and according to the librarian on duty, they're occupied from open to closing every day, so if you want to use one you have to line up before it opens. People who say, "Just use the library" are people who have never tried to just use a library.
Nextgrid 6y ago
Entering any kind of credentials or confidential information into a public computer is (or should be) a big no-no.

cm2187 6y ago

Even a plumber or electrician will spend the evening sending invoices by email, discussing future bookings, etc.

eli 6y ago
Ordering parts, dispatching jobs, looking up service manuals, applying for permits...

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

People like that could get by with dial up if people like the ones reading this comment would stop loading 80MB of JS just so they can save a couple lines of code. Edit: The dailup part was an exaggeration but if your web app doesn't suck 3g and two bars or a 1Mb down DSL pipe should be fine for most CRUD type business tasks that. There's no reason that signing in and signing up for a shift should take more bandwidth than Craigslist.

emodendroket 6y ago
They could even get by without the Internet if such business were all conducted on the phone. So what?
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  My point is that the kinds of CRUD and spreadsheet manipulation tasks that most people who don't work at a screen all day need to do on a screen can be done over a trivially tiny pipe if that pipe is used with at least a token amount of efficiency.
  - emodendroket 6y ago
    But they're not, for many reasons.
- yodelshady 6y ago
  I'll preface this with noting it's a little odd to act as though adding 80 MB of unnecessary JS is a popular idea on HN. They couldn't if they needed to work asynchronously. Or if they couldn't speak or hear well over the phone, the likelihood of which approaches 1 if you have so much as a different accent. Or if you don't want the other person to hear your accent. It's a bit cliche maybe, but I know people who've benefited from all of those features of IP-based communication, and they're reasons to be happy about the Internet. And since just about any telecommunications system that transmits voice can be bullied into transmitting IP packets, there's really little cost.

parsimo2010 6y ago

So did factories not exist prior to the internet? How on earth did people get paid, coordinate shift changes, or ask their boss for time off back in the 1950s? I think the reaction from GP was likely due to a difference in how people interpret the meaning of the word can't, as in some people mean "I currently use the internet because non-internet solutions are inconvenient" vs "It's literally impossible to do my job without the internet or losing the internet would make my job completely irrelevant(such as being a dev on the Google search team)." I think that even for work from home jobs, if the internet disappeared tomorrow a lot of employers would figure out how to do the important stuff with non-internet solutions, like accepting longer business timelines, couriering paper documents, sending faxes (this might require getting fax machines and landlines for employees, but companies will pay for them if they need to), and having telephone meetings instead of Zoom. Some employers would probably cut employees/tasks that weren't adding as much value as the effort required to shift to non-internet solutions, but I don't think it would be as high as a literal interpretation of this survey would imply.

SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
What about people working for companies who's policies dictate that certain actions must be done through some internet system (eg time clocks, payroll, scheduling, etc). It might be physically possible to ask someone else to do some of these things for one, but it also might not be allowed. EG if all time off requests including sick days have to be entered in a web scheduling system, then it may not be possible to just do the old "ask the boss for the day off" and have it not be considered an unexcused absence by corporate higher-ups.
- parsimo2010 6y ago
  If you're a remotely decent employee, your manager will figure out a workaround or help you get an exception to the policy. It's hard to find good help, and if you're fired because of a completely inflexible system where you have to clock in with an internet system, then you weren't really fired for the lack of internet, you were fired because management wanted an excuse to fire you.