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A long text very well written in which he nuances the notion of freedom and in which he attacks the free software foundation claiming that the FSF does not unde

A long text very well written in which he nuances the notion of freedom and in which he attacks the free software foundation claiming that the FSF does not understand these nuances: "Indeed, the entire Free Software movement seems like a typical failure of appreciating these kind of trade-offs when it comes to freedom." I find this extremely pretentious and very poorly argumented. I wish I could mod down this article. This looks like the beginning of an FSF smear campaign.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
arp242 6y ago
The main reason I wrote this was to counter some libertarian ideas/zeitgeist. The original draft (from, ehm, maybe 2 years ago) was titled "The libertarian fallacy", but I felt this didn't do service since libertarianism is quite broad (indeed, I have quite a few libertarian leanings myself). The second reason is indeed that I do plan to write some other things to point out some of the FSFs failings as I see them, both in their philosophy and some more pragmatical things, and the appreciation of the complexity of "freedom" is one of them. I agree that as it stands it's not well argumented, but this will be an article on its own (soon™, although a kind of proto-draft is available as some comments I made at [1]). I have this kind of complex dependency tree in my head on what to write in what order. I hate how you phrase this as a "smear campaign" though. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect people to recognise I'm arguing in good faith, and "smear campaign" implies that I don't. [1]: https://lobste.rs/s/gywiju/freedom_isn_t_free#c_73fmon https://lobste.rs/s/gywiju/freedom_isn_t_free#c_73fmon
- icebraining 6y ago
  I think you if target a specific organization or movement, you should put more effort into portraying their position fairly if you want to be taken in good faith. The Free Software movement doesn't just say "GPL increases freedom", it has a whole Philosophy section which is easily available at the GNU website, describing why they think the Four Freedoms are essential and override the others.
  - arp242 6y ago
    I'm quite familiar with the various writings on the topic, and if there is an in-depth examination of the various trade-offs involved with Free Software then I have not read it. Much of it seems, quite frankly, rather dismissive. > I think you if target a specific organization or movement, you should put more effort into portraying their position fairly I think that's not an unfair point. I have commented out this sentence until such a time I have written a more extensive article on it that can be linked. I also don't really want to focus on the details of specific examples with this, but rather on the bigger picture (I was very hesitant to include it as an example at all, as it's not a debate well known outside of the programming community; I may change my mind and remove it altogether).
    - ran3824692 6y ago
      > I have not read it Then try reading instead of typing, especially https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.en.html
      - arp242 6y ago
        I have read that. I have read most things I could find on the FSF and GNU websites about this years ago already, and again several weeks ago. And I think that's exactly the kind of casual dismissiveness I'm talking about which barely even recognizes that there are any trade-offs involved at all, much less address them.
        bmn__ 6y ago
        The introductory philosophic essay lays it out very clearly: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html > we should perform a cost-benefit analysis on behalf of society as a whole, taking account of individual freedom as well as production of material goods. You cannot say in good faith that the essays fail to recognise or address the existence of trade-offs. Please take note.
        6y ago
- webreac 6y ago
  Ok, I'm ready to believe that you're acting in good faith. I'm going through a difficult divorce, which makes me touchy about the smearing. If someone wanted to start a FSF smear campaign, it would be a good strategy to write insightful articles like yours sprinkled with negative remarks about the FSF. IMHO, you should clarify (or remove) this part of your article.
  - arp242 6y ago
    Yeah; I removed it. See my other reply on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24132388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24132388
- ryukafalz 6y ago
  To quote the article: >When people say “GPL increases freedom” then they’re right. When others say “GPL limits freedom compared to MIT” then they’re right too. It’s just a matter about which freedoms exactly we’re talking about, and for who. I think it's pretty clear that the freedom the FSF is advocating for is freedom for the user primarily, and only secondarily for the developer. They're a political organization and this is one of their principles, and those who counter with effectively "but what about my freedom to restrict the user?" are missing the point. You may disagree with the FSF's position on ideological grounds, but if you do so it's unhelpful to argue that something is "more" or "less" free without first establishing common definitions. You probably have different working definitions of "freedom" in that context at that point, and arguing without reconciling those is likely to result in the two parties arguing right past each other.
franciscop 6y ago
Agreed, it also seems that bit was removed; and without it it's still an excellent article.
bhupy 6y ago
> I wish I could mod down this article. This looks like the beginning of an FSF smear campaign. This is what the "Paradox of Tolerance" idea looks like, when taken to its logical conclusion. By simply tolerating this person's post, its ability to be tolerant is ultimately destroyed by the intolerant.
ynmzcn 6y ago
"There are also many cases where increased freedom doesn’t limit other people’s freedom; for example my freedom to have consensual sexual relationships with whomever I choose doesn’t limit anyone else’s freedom. But not infrequently when I see someone talking about freedom in absolutes I find they’ve failed to fully appreciated all perspectives of the issue, especially on complex topics which affect more than just the private lives of people. " Congrat. I wish you will write a book.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

arp242 6y ago

The main reason I wrote this was to counter some libertarian ideas/zeitgeist. The original draft (from, ehm, maybe 2 years ago) was titled "The libertarian fallacy", but I felt this didn't do service since libertarianism is quite broad (indeed, I have quite a few libertarian leanings myself). The second reason is indeed that I do plan to write some other things to point out some of the FSFs failings as I see them, both in their philosophy and some more pragmatical things, and the appreciation of the complexity of "freedom" is one of them. I agree that as it stands it's not well argumented, but this will be an article on its own (soon™, although a kind of proto-draft is available as some comments I made at [1]). I have this kind of complex dependency tree in my head on what to write in what order. I hate how you phrase this as a "smear campaign" though. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect people to recognise I'm arguing in good faith, and "smear campaign" implies that I don't. [1]: https://lobste.rs/s/gywiju/freedom_isn_t_free#c_73fmon https://lobste.rs/s/gywiju/freedom_isn_t_free#c_73fmon

icebraining 6y ago
I think you if target a specific organization or movement, you should put more effort into portraying their position fairly if you want to be taken in good faith. The Free Software movement doesn't just say "GPL increases freedom", it has a whole Philosophy section which is easily available at the GNU website, describing why they think the Four Freedoms are essential and override the others.
- arp242 6y ago
  I'm quite familiar with the various writings on the topic, and if there is an in-depth examination of the various trade-offs involved with Free Software then I have not read it. Much of it seems, quite frankly, rather dismissive. > I think you if target a specific organization or movement, you should put more effort into portraying their position fairly I think that's not an unfair point. I have commented out this sentence until such a time I have written a more extensive article on it that can be linked. I also don't really want to focus on the details of specific examples with this, but rather on the bigger picture (I was very hesitant to include it as an example at all, as it's not a debate well known outside of the programming community; I may change my mind and remove it altogether).
  - ran3824692 6y ago
    > I have not read it Then try reading instead of typing, especially https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.en.html
    - arp242 6y ago
      I have read that. I have read most things I could find on the FSF and GNU websites about this years ago already, and again several weeks ago. And I think that's exactly the kind of casual dismissiveness I'm talking about which barely even recognizes that there are any trade-offs involved at all, much less address them.
      - bmn__ 6y ago
        The introductory philosophic essay lays it out very clearly: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html > we should perform a cost-benefit analysis on behalf of society as a whole, taking account of individual freedom as well as production of material goods. You cannot say in good faith that the essays fail to recognise or address the existence of trade-offs. Please take note.
      - 6y ago
webreac 6y ago
Ok, I'm ready to believe that you're acting in good faith. I'm going through a difficult divorce, which makes me touchy about the smearing. If someone wanted to start a FSF smear campaign, it would be a good strategy to write insightful articles like yours sprinkled with negative remarks about the FSF. IMHO, you should clarify (or remove) this part of your article.
- arp242 6y ago
  Yeah; I removed it. See my other reply on this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24132388 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24132388
ryukafalz 6y ago
To quote the article: >When people say “GPL increases freedom” then they’re right. When others say “GPL limits freedom compared to MIT” then they’re right too. It’s just a matter about which freedoms exactly we’re talking about, and for who. I think it's pretty clear that the freedom the FSF is advocating for is freedom for the user primarily, and only secondarily for the developer. They're a political organization and this is one of their principles, and those who counter with effectively "but what about my freedom to restrict the user?" are missing the point. You may disagree with the FSF's position on ideological grounds, but if you do so it's unhelpful to argue that something is "more" or "less" free without first establishing common definitions. You probably have different working definitions of "freedom" in that context at that point, and arguing without reconciling those is likely to result in the two parties arguing right past each other.

franciscop 6y ago

Agreed, it also seems that bit was removed; and without it it's still an excellent article.

bhupy 6y ago

> I wish I could mod down this article. This looks like the beginning of an FSF smear campaign. This is what the "Paradox of Tolerance" idea looks like, when taken to its logical conclusion. By simply tolerating this person's post, its ability to be tolerant is ultimately destroyed by the intolerant.

ynmzcn 6y ago

"There are also many cases where increased freedom doesn’t limit other people’s freedom; for example my freedom to have consensual sexual relationships with whomever I choose doesn’t limit anyone else’s freedom. But not infrequently when I see someone talking about freedom in absolutes I find they’ve failed to fully appreciated all perspectives of the issue, especially on complex topics which affect more than just the private lives of people. " Congrat. I wish you will write a book.