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I think big L libertarians are aware of the idea that freedom is full of trade-offs. The issue is that someone has to make these decisions and libertarians don
by nickthemagicman 6y ago
I think big L libertarians are aware of the idea that freedom is full of trade-offs.
The issue is that someone has to make these decisions and libertarians don't think the government is the group to do it.
The most important institutions in human society — language, law, money, and markets — all developed spontaneously, without central direction. Civil society — the complex network of associations and connections among people — is another example of spontaneous order; the associations within civil society are formed for a purpose, but civil society itself is not an organization and does not have a purpose of its own.
Government is the big hammer and when you start using government casually instead of letting people decide at their own direction that's when you start running into massive problems. Because the government could give you what you want one day but then with that same power take away everything the next.
- arp242 6y ago> I think big L libertarians are aware of the idea that freedom is full of trade-offs. Perhaps; but I don't often see it recognized in Libertarian discourse and writings. This is possibly a failing on my part on reading the right kind of libertarian things. It's hard to write something generic about an entire ideology since it's always comprised of different views and priorities; and no matter what you write it'll do an injustice to some views. I've added the word "often" to emphasize this a bit.
- unishark 6y agoMy understanding of libertarianism is as basically generalizing on the idea of freedom from slavery as the most fundamental right. "Liberty" is then the narrowly-defined freedom from having force used against you. And you are only justified in using force against others to stop them from using force against you. As to whether loud noise or sulfur dioxide count as sufficient force against you seems arguable.
- nickthemagicman 6y agoThat's not very accurate. Libertarians believe in collective reason over centralized authority. Here's a good run down. https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/key-concepts-libertarianism https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/key-concepts-li...
- arp242 6y agoThis is all very fine, but what it misses are the power imbalances we have. This is not inherently a bad thing, but if I don't have the freedom to disagree with my landlord out of fear of being evicted then I'm not living a very "free" life. "Collective reason" sounds great, but in practice it doesn't really work. I feel it's very naïve.
- amscanne 6y agoYou are absolutely free to disagree with your landlord by moving out and finding another place to live. Ideally there are no government constraints on either party (e.g. housing assignments, rental limitations and controls, etc.). I don’t really understand the rest of the point being made here. You wouldn’t have such a choice with a central authority giving you a housing assignment.
- clairity 6y agothat's libertarianism's fatal flaw: you can't escape force and power (that is to say, politics) in any kind of society, let alone in a political system. most of libertarianism is trying to cope with this core flaw, not living that glorious individualist life. liberty as one of many (sometimes contradictory) values (and the academic lines of inquiry therein) is fine. a whole ideology based on the supremacy of that one value is simply unworkable. we're social creatures, not just a collection of coincident individuals.
- nickthemagicman 6y agoYou should read Hayek 'The Road to Serfdom'. I think you would get a lot out of it.
- mchusma 6y agoI would be curious about the works you find confusing on this matter. To me libertarianism (big L and small l) is very acutely aware of tradeoffs. This is sort of the entire "point" of libertarianism. I think your article is essentially a core libertarian message, so i think you may be confusing libertarianism with the American Republican Party (which is definitely not libertarian but occasionally adopts some of the language of libertarianism).
- watwut 6y agoThe point of libertarianism is not to be "acutely aware of tradeoffs". The contemporary libertarian writings I have seen were pretty much the opposite.
- amscanne 6y agoThe parent asked for clarity on which writings, and I am similarly curious. I can’t imagine a Libertarian worldview that isn’t aware of the fact that actions that impinge of the rights and freedoms of others need to be limited, and enforcing those laws are one of the few genuine responsibilities of the government. To pretend otherwise is a total straw man.
- nickthemagicman 6y agoYeah exactly. Libertarians don't advocate for zero gov't. There's a lot of demonization and (willful?) lack of nuance and understanding of it.
- tecnocriollo 6y agoYou are confusing libertarian with anarch-capitalists. The former advocates for the rule of law the latter wants a stateless society
- missedthecue 6y agoFor further clarification, Anarcho-Capitalists advocate for a society that is stateless, but not lawless. The basic premise of their philosophy is that the government does a poor job of growing and distributing food; creating and enforcing law is not an easier task than growing potatoes, therefore, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to assume that the government would do a great job at that. And indeed if you look at modern society, the most glaring examples of inequality are in policing, the justice system, and in k-12 education, all of which are government-controlled.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Anarcho-Capitalists advocate for a society that is stateless, but not lawless. Whatever aggregate enforces law is, ipso facto, the State.