6 ms·

> The two projects are aiming to develop 14-nanometer and 12-nanometer chip process technologies, which are two to three generations behind TSMC but still the m

> The two projects are aiming to develop 14-nanometer and 12-nanometer chip process technologies, which are two to three generations behind TSMC but still the most cutting-edge in China. Doesn't seem much of a threat to TSMC.

schuke 6y ago
Threatening Intel should be good enough? Or do those nanometers not translate? (Genuinely curious)
- nix23 6y ago
  >Or do those nanometers not translate? It really Depends: Smaller means, smaller package, more transistors/sq and less power-consumption. But if you can afford to build a bigger chip to have the same transistor count, and you are ok with the higher power-consumption you have in theory the same performance, sometimes you don't even want 'too' small transistors, an example is radiation-hardening.
asa4akj 6y ago
> Doesn't seem much of a threat to TSMC. Now. It's still brain drain, and it's to boost their industry. Measures such as this do not exist in a vacuum, more will come.
lnsru 6y ago
One must start somewhere. That’s iPhone 8 age technology, very usable thing. Especially if it gets the only one available in a trade war.
nix23 6y ago
>Doesn't seem much of a threat to TSMC. That's where you are wrong, TSMC is just the producer, but many many more Company are behind it like: https://www.asml.com/en https://www.asml.com/en (Probably the most important Corp in the industry...but no one knows) http://www.appliedmaterials.com/ http://www.appliedmaterials.com/ https://www.comet-group.com/ https://www.comet-group.com/ And many more, without those chains TSMC could do just nothing. EDIT: Oh man i forgot Lam Research!! And the US 'forbid' asml to sell the technology to china, that means quite allot: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-usa-china-insight/trump-administration-pressed-dutch-hard-to-cancel-china-chip-equipment-sale-sources-idUSKBN1Z50HN https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-usa-china-in...
- abledon 6y ago
  > https://www.asml.com/en https://www.asml.com/en interesting, i wanted to invest in some chip companies and this gives some good startin gpoints to investigate
pastrami_panda 6y ago
Don't forget 12 nm is still the best Intel can fab, it might not be world class currently but it's certainly very capable. Imo it's very threatening, especially if they also keep grabbing talent like they seem to be capable of doing.
- mamon 6y ago
  Don't forget Intel's nanometers are smaller than TSMC nanometers. TSMC 12nm is 25% lower transistor density that Intel's 14nm
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
    Wait what? I had no idea this was a thing, can you explain?
    - ChoGGi 6y ago
      Ever since (I think) 28nm, companies stopped using nm as an actual gate length and changed it to a marketing size. Edit: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/technology_node https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/technology_node
    - chasd00 6y ago
      that's crazy, and news to me. So now a unit of length is a marketing term. This is even more misleading than branding the word "real" so you can advertise "contains Real(tm) cheese" on food products.
      - pkaye 6y ago
        I think it comes down to what feature length you are measuring. Transistor density seems like a better measure.
    - mensetmanusman 6y ago
      There is no standard comparison because of different architectures.
peacefulhat 6y ago
I think it's less about overtaking TSMC and more about hedging for a situation where China is completely cut off from chip imports. RIP if have to put out new phones and computers which are worse than the previous year's.
totalZero 6y ago
The specific process node isn't important. Once they figure out how to do EUV and other manufacturing techniques that limit their domestic industry's advancement, China will be able to compete at the smaller process nodes too. Western governments can stop ASML from shipping an EUV machine to a Chinese customer, but they can't stop China from developing their own technology.
kasabali 6y ago
It is a threat if the lack of talent stalls development of further nodes.
sudosysgen 6y ago
SMIC is already manufacturing 14nm. The goal is to vertically integrate the entirety of the process, and thus gain independence as well as a future advantage.

schuke 6y ago

Threatening Intel should be good enough? Or do those nanometers not translate? (Genuinely curious)

nix23 6y ago
>Or do those nanometers not translate? It really Depends: Smaller means, smaller package, more transistors/sq and less power-consumption. But if you can afford to build a bigger chip to have the same transistor count, and you are ok with the higher power-consumption you have in theory the same performance, sometimes you don't even want 'too' small transistors, an example is radiation-hardening.

asa4akj 6y ago

> Doesn't seem much of a threat to TSMC. Now. It's still brain drain, and it's to boost their industry. Measures such as this do not exist in a vacuum, more will come.

lnsru 6y ago

One must start somewhere. That’s iPhone 8 age technology, very usable thing. Especially if it gets the only one available in a trade war.

nix23 6y ago

>Doesn't seem much of a threat to TSMC. That's where you are wrong, TSMC is just the producer, but many many more Company are behind it like: https://www.asml.com/en https://www.asml.com/en (Probably the most important Corp in the industry...but no one knows) http://www.appliedmaterials.com/ http://www.appliedmaterials.com/ https://www.comet-group.com/ https://www.comet-group.com/ And many more, without those chains TSMC could do just nothing. EDIT: Oh man i forgot Lam Research!! And the US 'forbid' asml to sell the technology to china, that means quite allot: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-usa-china-insight/trump-administration-pressed-dutch-hard-to-cancel-china-chip-equipment-sale-sources-idUSKBN1Z50HN https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-usa-china-in...

abledon 6y ago
> https://www.asml.com/en https://www.asml.com/en interesting, i wanted to invest in some chip companies and this gives some good startin gpoints to investigate

pastrami_panda 6y ago

Don't forget 12 nm is still the best Intel can fab, it might not be world class currently but it's certainly very capable. Imo it's very threatening, especially if they also keep grabbing talent like they seem to be capable of doing.

mamon 6y ago
Don't forget Intel's nanometers are smaller than TSMC nanometers. TSMC 12nm is 25% lower transistor density that Intel's 14nm
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 6y ago
  Wait what? I had no idea this was a thing, can you explain?
  - ChoGGi 6y ago
    Ever since (I think) 28nm, companies stopped using nm as an actual gate length and changed it to a marketing size. Edit: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/technology_node https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/technology_node
  - chasd00 6y ago
    that's crazy, and news to me. So now a unit of length is a marketing term. This is even more misleading than branding the word "real" so you can advertise "contains Real(tm) cheese" on food products.
    - pkaye 6y ago
      I think it comes down to what feature length you are measuring. Transistor density seems like a better measure.
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    There is no standard comparison because of different architectures.

peacefulhat 6y ago

I think it's less about overtaking TSMC and more about hedging for a situation where China is completely cut off from chip imports. RIP if have to put out new phones and computers which are worse than the previous year's.

totalZero 6y ago

The specific process node isn't important. Once they figure out how to do EUV and other manufacturing techniques that limit their domestic industry's advancement, China will be able to compete at the smaller process nodes too. Western governments can stop ASML from shipping an EUV machine to a Chinese customer, but they can't stop China from developing their own technology.

kasabali 6y ago

It is a threat if the lack of talent stalls development of further nodes.

sudosysgen 6y ago

SMIC is already manufacturing 14nm. The goal is to vertically integrate the entirety of the process, and thus gain independence as well as a future advantage.