4 ms·

> And here is exactly why it's a stupid idea, different countries have different culture and history. Even culture can negatively affect certain groups. Appare

by bkor 6y ago

> And here is exactly why it's a stupid idea, different countries have different culture and history. Even culture can negatively affect certain groups. Apparently the Zwarte Piet thing is negatively affecting and causing some racism. There's the entirely ridiculous "Kick Out Zwarte Piet" group, whose behaviour initially made me against whatever they wanted to happen. There's also some practicalities. Normally kids wouldn't recognize the people playing "Sinterklaas" or "Zwarte Piet". The initial proposed alternatives were bad. Still, saying "culture" as the only reason for being against something? It's not good enough! I'm Dutch btw.

sebazzz 6y ago
The entire core of the question is whether when something is not intended to be racist is racist. For instance: in Iran there is a festivity in which a person with a black face plays a huge role, and it has been declared world cultural heritage. I wonder why there is no discussion about that. Is that because the Dutch are white and the past is the VOC and slavery? Or because the Dutch are white?
- ralfn 6y ago
  > Is that because the Dutch are white and the past is the VOC and slavery? Or because the Dutch are white? As a Dutch person I will answer: the first. The great grandfather's of the black kids getting name called 'Zwarte Piet' because of this tradition were literally slaves. Their grandparents were free but did not have remotely the same chances in life. Often couldn't read/write. Any original culture or family ties they had were completely erased. It wasn't like we allowed them to 'raise their kids' when they were slaves. Their parents had it much better. Went to the same schools, etc. Still had to deal with racism when going out or trying to get a nice job, but not at all with persecution. They still did not having a lot of good role models within their own community yet. And don't think about trying to go to a club or join a fraternity. The current generation is the first one performing on par with native people within society. With more good role models and succesfull entrepeneurs. Honestly. Decent folks in the Netherlands already changed the tradition to the chimney style. Small subtle change. Doesn't harm anyone. The people at this moment who still strongly hold on to Zwarte Piet .. are racist. But the tradition wasn't intended to be. And before the discussions started it wasn't. It is now. Because it's impossible to claim that minor changes to traditions are this important to someone unless the intend is racist. Traditions that were always changing. That have changed over and over again. And the only change that is a discussion is this one.

by bkor 6y ago

sebazzz 6y ago

The entire core of the question is whether when something is not intended to be racist is racist. For instance: in Iran there is a festivity in which a person with a black face plays a huge role, and it has been declared world cultural heritage. I wonder why there is no discussion about that. Is that because the Dutch are white and the past is the VOC and slavery? Or because the Dutch are white?

ralfn 6y ago
> Is that because the Dutch are white and the past is the VOC and slavery? Or because the Dutch are white? As a Dutch person I will answer: the first. The great grandfather's of the black kids getting name called 'Zwarte Piet' because of this tradition were literally slaves. Their grandparents were free but did not have remotely the same chances in life. Often couldn't read/write. Any original culture or family ties they had were completely erased. It wasn't like we allowed them to 'raise their kids' when they were slaves. Their parents had it much better. Went to the same schools, etc. Still had to deal with racism when going out or trying to get a nice job, but not at all with persecution. They still did not having a lot of good role models within their own community yet. And don't think about trying to go to a club or join a fraternity. The current generation is the first one performing on par with native people within society. With more good role models and succesfull entrepeneurs. Honestly. Decent folks in the Netherlands already changed the tradition to the chimney style. Small subtle change. Doesn't harm anyone. The people at this moment who still strongly hold on to Zwarte Piet .. are racist. But the tradition wasn't intended to be. And before the discussions started it wasn't. It is now. Because it's impossible to claim that minor changes to traditions are this important to someone unless the intend is racist. Traditions that were always changing. That have changed over and over again. And the only change that is a discussion is this one.