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Nordic politicians will cave in like everyone else. Generally it's funny how this region (Nordics) is reported in the media as some kinds of rationalist demi-g

Nordic politicians will cave in like everyone else. Generally it's funny how this region (Nordics) is reported in the media as some kinds of rationalist demi-gods, when in reality most politics here are just your regular smokescreen mixed with wishful thinking and a lack of understanding the real world. In conclusion, politicians will do as politicians do nowerdays - drive their own career over the 'public good'.

Jolter 6y ago
You seem to be misguided about the influence of politics on labor negotiations in Sweden. There is no mandate for a politician to interfere, it is entirely a thing between the two bargaining parties. That is, unless you can gather a political majority behind a major upheaval of the current law, which would have to happen after the next election because no such majority exists today.
- waihtis 6y ago
  Potentially true, my reflection point is Finland instead of Sweden. Unions over here are however thinly masked extensions of political parties, yes they operate somewhat independently but each political party has a 'favourite' union who they influence through unofficial channels.
  - menybuvico 6y ago
    Sweden and Finland are pretty alike, but Sweden's system has a bit less political interference compared to how it's here in Finland. The ruling Social Democratic Party has strong ties with the unions though.
    - progre 6y ago
      They have traditional strong ties to one subset of the unions, the LO ones. But it's complex: LO is often openly critical of the (ruling) Social Democratic Party. At the same time a large chunk of the actual union members are voting for a different party, often one in opposition to the Social Democrats.
      - menybuvico 6y ago
        Yeah, my experiences with Swedish unions is definitely a bit dated, but I guess SD's growth is messing things up a bit, especially in LO?
        progre 6y ago
        It is. The LO union members are the ones with the most to loose with a workforce surplus that comes with more immigration (really refugee asylum, traditional immigration is on about the same levels as ever). The Alliance (center-right, when it existed) recogniced this and made the traditionally left humanitarian stance their own. This backfired in a spectacular way when the alt-right wave swept the world. SD takes voters from both blocks.
  - tokai 6y ago
    >each political party has a 'favourite' union who they influence through unofficial channels. its the other way around.
    - waihtis 6y ago
      Good correction - although I would say its more or less a two-way influence system.
- guerrilla 6y ago
  > That is, unless you can gather a political majority behind a major upheaval of the current law, wh But hasn't this already happened with recent reforms regarding the limiting of strike rights [1] and current LAS negotiations. [1] https://www.arbetaren.se/2019/06/19/riksdagen-klubbade-inskrankt-strejkratt/ https://www.arbetaren.se/2019/06/19/riksdagen-klubbade-inskr...
  - Jolter 6y ago
    That's a pretty marginal change in the context of European labor practices. There is still an "obligation of peace" while a bargaining agreement is in place, for example. It will (initially at least) only affect sites where there is more than one union who are competing for the same category of members, which is not all that common.
    - guerrilla 6y ago
      > It will (initially at least) only affect sites where there is more than one union who are competing for the same category of members, which is not all that common. It is abstractly a huge deal and practically a huge deal for Hamnen, SAC, Brandmännens Riksförbund and other alternative unions because it excludes all competition among unions and channels all reform through the internal political workings of those unions like LO/Kommunal. As the a laywer in Arbetaren explained (and others have explained elsewhere) previously, it allows for company (i.e. "yellow") unions which is a realistic problem now considering Amazon is involved.
tokai 6y ago
It's foremost an issue between amazon and the unions. The labour market in the Nordic countries are organized through negotiations between employers and the workers. Usually the state tries to stay out of it, letting the labour marked self-regulate.
menybuvico 6y ago
Good thing collective bargaining doesn't involve politicians, then. Unless the elected politicians decide to uproot the entire Swedish system by changing the laws, there's little they can do to interfere with this process. About 70% of the Swedish workforce is in some kind of union. Worst case-scenario for Amazon is that we'll see some kind of stand-off where multiple labor unions prevent their members from working for Amazon, or doing work for Amazon (usually things like truck drivers at other businesses going on strike instead of delivering good to/from Amazon).
redgc 6y ago
The outcome will likely be BATNA based, not political. (https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/batna/translate-your-batna-to-the-current-deal/ https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/batna/translate-your-batna...). Amazon have a pretty good alternative, so they'll only warehouse in Sweden if it makes economic sense vs Germany + Poland. As for the unions, their incentives and alternatives may be different to the union members too.

Jolter 6y ago

You seem to be misguided about the influence of politics on labor negotiations in Sweden. There is no mandate for a politician to interfere, it is entirely a thing between the two bargaining parties. That is, unless you can gather a political majority behind a major upheaval of the current law, which would have to happen after the next election because no such majority exists today.

waihtis 6y ago
Potentially true, my reflection point is Finland instead of Sweden. Unions over here are however thinly masked extensions of political parties, yes they operate somewhat independently but each political party has a 'favourite' union who they influence through unofficial channels.
- menybuvico 6y ago
  Sweden and Finland are pretty alike, but Sweden's system has a bit less political interference compared to how it's here in Finland. The ruling Social Democratic Party has strong ties with the unions though.
  - progre 6y ago
    They have traditional strong ties to one subset of the unions, the LO ones. But it's complex: LO is often openly critical of the (ruling) Social Democratic Party. At the same time a large chunk of the actual union members are voting for a different party, often one in opposition to the Social Democrats.
    - menybuvico 6y ago
      Yeah, my experiences with Swedish unions is definitely a bit dated, but I guess SD's growth is messing things up a bit, especially in LO?
      - progre 6y ago
        It is. The LO union members are the ones with the most to loose with a workforce surplus that comes with more immigration (really refugee asylum, traditional immigration is on about the same levels as ever). The Alliance (center-right, when it existed) recogniced this and made the traditionally left humanitarian stance their own. This backfired in a spectacular way when the alt-right wave swept the world. SD takes voters from both blocks.
- tokai 6y ago
  >each political party has a 'favourite' union who they influence through unofficial channels. its the other way around.
  - waihtis 6y ago
    Good correction - although I would say its more or less a two-way influence system.
guerrilla 6y ago
> That is, unless you can gather a political majority behind a major upheaval of the current law, wh But hasn't this already happened with recent reforms regarding the limiting of strike rights [1] and current LAS negotiations. [1] https://www.arbetaren.se/2019/06/19/riksdagen-klubbade-inskrankt-strejkratt/ https://www.arbetaren.se/2019/06/19/riksdagen-klubbade-inskr...
- Jolter 6y ago
  That's a pretty marginal change in the context of European labor practices. There is still an "obligation of peace" while a bargaining agreement is in place, for example. It will (initially at least) only affect sites where there is more than one union who are competing for the same category of members, which is not all that common.
  - guerrilla 6y ago
    > It will (initially at least) only affect sites where there is more than one union who are competing for the same category of members, which is not all that common. It is abstractly a huge deal and practically a huge deal for Hamnen, SAC, Brandmännens Riksförbund and other alternative unions because it excludes all competition among unions and channels all reform through the internal political workings of those unions like LO/Kommunal. As the a laywer in Arbetaren explained (and others have explained elsewhere) previously, it allows for company (i.e. "yellow") unions which is a realistic problem now considering Amazon is involved.

tokai 6y ago

It's foremost an issue between amazon and the unions. The labour market in the Nordic countries are organized through negotiations between employers and the workers. Usually the state tries to stay out of it, letting the labour marked self-regulate.

menybuvico 6y ago

Good thing collective bargaining doesn't involve politicians, then. Unless the elected politicians decide to uproot the entire Swedish system by changing the laws, there's little they can do to interfere with this process. About 70% of the Swedish workforce is in some kind of union. Worst case-scenario for Amazon is that we'll see some kind of stand-off where multiple labor unions prevent their members from working for Amazon, or doing work for Amazon (usually things like truck drivers at other businesses going on strike instead of delivering good to/from Amazon).

redgc 6y ago

The outcome will likely be BATNA based, not political. (https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/batna/translate-your-batna-to-the-current-deal/ https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/batna/translate-your-batna...). Amazon have a pretty good alternative, so they'll only warehouse in Sweden if it makes economic sense vs Germany + Poland. As for the unions, their incentives and alternatives may be different to the union members too.