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What a weird article. Loads of international companies operate in countries with wildly different laws, standards of living, disposable income, etc. Why compar

by bkor 6y ago

What a weird article. Loads of international companies operate in countries with wildly different laws, standards of living, disposable income, etc. Why compare Sweden with a Polish warehouse workers and not investigate how e.g. Amazon.fr operates? That country at least goes on strike significantly more often (probably more so than the rest of the EU combined). Meaning, one year I noticed them on strike every other week to protest some intended government plan, even though the company had nothing to do with that, plus they only went on strike during the night. > Initially, Swedish and Nordic clients will be mainly served from German warehouses — known as fulfillment centers in Amazon-speak — with trucks driving up to Sweden through Denmark, and a fulfillment center operated by local partner Kuehne + Nagel in the Swedish town of Eskilstuna, near Stockholm. So partly they question if they'll operate a warehouse, but at the same time, there's going to be a warehouses. Only difference is that someone else does the logistics for them. What usually happens with different standards of living is that the companies raise their prices a bit. Not sure why the article does not go into that. EU is planning some changes in the trucking cabotage laws, see e.g. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20200630STO82385/better-working-conditions-for-truck-drivers-across-the-eu https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/202.... This might (according to articles) make it more difficult to only use truckers from certain countries (e.g. whomever has the lowest standard of living / wage). Might also benefit the environment by ensuring companies might reduce the amount of trucking.

Jolter 6y ago
I don't know if you've quite understood how Swedish labor law differs from the French. Sweden is a little unique in that we have fewer strikes than most European countries. The reason is the "fredsplikt": as long as there is a collective bargaining agreement in place, if a worker goes on strike they can be legally laid off for shirking work. So, strikes will only happen at most every two-three years when the current agreement expires. And while then there may be a threat of strike, it seldom comes to that. In contrast, in most contries (notably France), unions may do "political strikes" to express opinions. Amazon won't be worried about their Swedish employees unpredictably going on strike for better terms. They will be worrying about having to agree to the same collective agreement as competing businesses. They will not get to push salaries lower than others, or squeeze slightly more hours or shorter breaks. So, they will have to look forward to their profits coming from economy of scale and not mistreatment of their warehouse workers. They will not be able to keep prices 10% lower than competitors while keeping the same profit margin, the way they do in the U.S. Until they sign an agreement, workers at other companies will likely put them under blockade, which means truckers from suppliers will refuse to ship to Amazon's Swedish warehouse; Postal workers will not pick up shipments to consumers; Caterers and conference centres won't service management meetings; Electricians will not service their warehouse; Garbage will not get picked up, etc. They can do some of this themselves, instead, but that's a very high threshold to cross on day 1.
- UK-Al05 6y ago
  Amazon doesn't compete on lower salaries, it competes on automation. Amazon actually lobbies for higher salaries, it hurts the competitors who don't use as much automation and are not great at operational efficiency. It's a myth the amazon pay low salaries. They they just optimise the heck out of everything. It's pretty smart in many ways, as its great PR and destroys your competitors if its national law.
  - bildung 6y ago
    At least in Germany they are definitely paying less than other logistics companies. Do you have an example country where amazon pays more than the competitors?
    - UK-Al05 6y ago
      https://www.geekwire.com/2018/amazon-raises-minimum-wage-15-hour-vows-lead-push-higher-u-s-minimum-wage/ https://www.geekwire.com/2018/amazon-raises-minimum-wage-15-... A lot of people think they forced amazon take this action, but strategically its great for amazon if they can raise the minimum wage. It will force other people out of business before causes them issues. It's calculated. They deliver more items per unit of labour then anyone else. Collective bargain agreements are more difficult because its not national law. You can pay more but your competitors won't. But unions being unions will always ask for more if they think they can, even if they already pay well compared to other companies. Do you have information on how well they are paid in Germany? I can't find any information on it other than amazon stating they pay well. Companies are a lot smarter than people given them credit for. They use regulation to their own advantage, they're not against it. They will lobby for nice sounding regulation for PR reasons if they've calculated it harm others more then themselves. They just position themselves to take advantage of the regulation. Most of the time companies with large amounts of capital are best place to do this. It's the small companies that get screwed.
  - Jolter 6y ago
    I consider automation to be part of "economy of scale". I don't think salary levels are necessarily the chief way Amazon squeezes their workers harder than competitors - you're right that their minimum wage in the US is higher than the law mandates - but I would also love to see evidence of what their competition is paying. I'd bet they're not on the federal minimum wage, either! It's not all automation though! Amazon is notorious for extreme work pressure. Too few and too short breaks, for example. This will absolutely not fly in Sweden. Not adapting properly to COVID-19 is another example of putting profits before working conditions.

by bkor 6y ago

Jolter 6y ago

I don't know if you've quite understood how Swedish labor law differs from the French. Sweden is a little unique in that we have fewer strikes than most European countries. The reason is the "fredsplikt": as long as there is a collective bargaining agreement in place, if a worker goes on strike they can be legally laid off for shirking work. So, strikes will only happen at most every two-three years when the current agreement expires. And while then there may be a threat of strike, it seldom comes to that. In contrast, in most contries (notably France), unions may do "political strikes" to express opinions. Amazon won't be worried about their Swedish employees unpredictably going on strike for better terms. They will be worrying about having to agree to the same collective agreement as competing businesses. They will not get to push salaries lower than others, or squeeze slightly more hours or shorter breaks. So, they will have to look forward to their profits coming from economy of scale and not mistreatment of their warehouse workers. They will not be able to keep prices 10% lower than competitors while keeping the same profit margin, the way they do in the U.S. Until they sign an agreement, workers at other companies will likely put them under blockade, which means truckers from suppliers will refuse to ship to Amazon's Swedish warehouse; Postal workers will not pick up shipments to consumers; Caterers and conference centres won't service management meetings; Electricians will not service their warehouse; Garbage will not get picked up, etc. They can do some of this themselves, instead, but that's a very high threshold to cross on day 1.

UK-Al05 6y ago
Amazon doesn't compete on lower salaries, it competes on automation. Amazon actually lobbies for higher salaries, it hurts the competitors who don't use as much automation and are not great at operational efficiency. It's a myth the amazon pay low salaries. They they just optimise the heck out of everything. It's pretty smart in many ways, as its great PR and destroys your competitors if its national law.
- bildung 6y ago
  At least in Germany they are definitely paying less than other logistics companies. Do you have an example country where amazon pays more than the competitors?
  - UK-Al05 6y ago
    https://www.geekwire.com/2018/amazon-raises-minimum-wage-15-hour-vows-lead-push-higher-u-s-minimum-wage/ https://www.geekwire.com/2018/amazon-raises-minimum-wage-15-... A lot of people think they forced amazon take this action, but strategically its great for amazon if they can raise the minimum wage. It will force other people out of business before causes them issues. It's calculated. They deliver more items per unit of labour then anyone else. Collective bargain agreements are more difficult because its not national law. You can pay more but your competitors won't. But unions being unions will always ask for more if they think they can, even if they already pay well compared to other companies. Do you have information on how well they are paid in Germany? I can't find any information on it other than amazon stating they pay well. Companies are a lot smarter than people given them credit for. They use regulation to their own advantage, they're not against it. They will lobby for nice sounding regulation for PR reasons if they've calculated it harm others more then themselves. They just position themselves to take advantage of the regulation. Most of the time companies with large amounts of capital are best place to do this. It's the small companies that get screwed.
- Jolter 6y ago
  I consider automation to be part of "economy of scale". I don't think salary levels are necessarily the chief way Amazon squeezes their workers harder than competitors - you're right that their minimum wage in the US is higher than the law mandates - but I would also love to see evidence of what their competition is paying. I'd bet they're not on the federal minimum wage, either! It's not all automation though! Amazon is notorious for extreme work pressure. Too few and too short breaks, for example. This will absolutely not fly in Sweden. Not adapting properly to COVID-19 is another example of putting profits before working conditions.