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Well it is a lot more complicated. There is no "mental energy reserve", but we do get energized by norepinephrine in the brain and once it becomes saturated it

by joekim 6y ago

Well it is a lot more complicated. There is no "mental energy reserve", but we do get energized by norepinephrine in the brain and once it becomes saturated it it loses its effect. A simple technique to reset it is to activate the "sigh reflex". You just breathe in twice at a normal pace and then slowly exhale through the mouth. Another more powerful reset is to do yoga nidra for 10-20 minutes. Yoga nidra, once you figure it out, will actually deactivate the prefrontal cortex and simulate sleep. Which has a huge boost for your cognitive abilities. Both of these techniques will increase serotonin and dopamine in the brain which will decrease norepinephrine. Once norepinephrine is no longer saturated you can become energized by it again. For example, imagine a football team winning the super bowl. They've been pushing 110%. Suddenly, they're jubilant and jumping all over the place. The dopamine and serotonin pushes out the norepinephrine allowing to return and become effective again.

epicureanideal 6y ago
I'll definitely try this, but do you happen to have any links about this? And yes, I realize "mental energy reserve" isn't a scientific term, it's just a term I'm using for lack of something better to label something I experience. Re: the football team though, no matter how energized they are, that team will not be able to lift more than their 1RM (1 rep max), they won't be able to lift their 10RM (10 rep max) more than 10 times (maybe a few more on a good day). Eventually there are physical limits to their ability. Similarly if that team had not slept for 48 hours, or had done non-stop math problems for 18 hours and was asked to continue doing them.
- joekim 6y ago
  > Re: the football team though, no matter how energized they are, that team will not be able to lift more than their 1RM (1 rep max), they won't be able to lift their 10RM (10 rep max) more than 10 times (maybe a few more on a good day). Eventually there are physical limits to their ability. Similarly if that team had not slept for 48 hours, or had done non-stop math problems for 18 hours and was asked to continue doing them. I want to challenge your thought experiment. Consider Navy Seal training. Pushing through via sheer force of will isn't possible. There needs to be a cycling and restorative process that enables above and beyond grit. Clip of Prof Huberman on "quitting behavior" such as quitting a long bout of work. (Note: Noradrenaline is norepinephrine. It's a weird historical thing where two teams discovered it and nobody agreed on the real name) https://podclips.com/ct/y4Ucji https://podclips.com/ct/y4Ucji Good Joe Rogan with Huberman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLJowTOkZVo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLJowTOkZVo
  - epicureanideal 6y ago
    "Pushing through via sheer force of will isn't possible." That's exactly what I'm saying. I'll check out the link.
    - joekim 6y ago
      > "Pushing through via sheer force of will isn't possible." > That's exactly what I'm saying. I'll check out the link. What I'm saying is that you can't push your way through Navy Seal training by trying harder. But you can significantly increase your output and down regulate the process around "quitting" by using other techniques that will trigger the norepinephrine reset.
      - epicureanideal 6y ago
        I think you're identifying something important to talk about. If I understand correctly from the PodClip, really the idea is to give your brain a small reward for making progress. I think many of us on HN are familiar with being able to work 10-12 hours if we're feeling like we're on the track to success. However, even then, at 10-12 hours, eventually the brain gets tired. That's something that I'm also interested in learning about.
        joekim 6y ago
        When your brain gets tired maybe all you need to do is some Yoga Nidra or alike and you can reset and get more clarity back by pushing out the norepinephrine.
- james_s_tayler 6y ago
  Sounds like a regurgitation of the interview of Dr Andrew Huberman on Rich Will's podcast. Look it up on YouTube.
  - joekim 6y ago
    Yeah, sorry I should have referenced the source in the original post.
    - james_s_tayler 6y ago
      It's a fantastic interview!
- TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
  Check out Paul Scheele of Learning Strategies Corporation https://www.learningstrategies.com/Home.asp https://www.learningstrategies.com/Home.asp No affiliation, just a happy customer. He's got this one guided meditation called 15 minute memory super charger, or some such, I think it's this one: https://www.learningstrategies.com/Paraliminal/Memory.asp https://www.learningstrategies.com/Paraliminal/Memory.asp It gets me nearly every time. I'd say 7 out of 10 times I listen to it I enter an altered state of relaxed alertness, somewhere between awake and and sleep, where I'm aware of my body and mind, but not fully present. Observers say I looked like I was asleep because I start twitching like I'm about fall asleep, but you're aware of what's happening. Do it a few days in a row and the change in mental / emotional resilience is nothing short of phenomenal.
- wildpeaks 6y ago
  You might enjoy reading about The Spoon Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/ https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine... It's a similar way to describe budgeting mental energy reserves, and how some activities lose spoons while others replenish them.
_tom_ 6y ago
While "mental energy reserve" is not a standard term, "decision fatigue" is, and is basically the same idea.
- infogulch 6y ago
  Eh, "mental energy reserve" seems to be used like "ego depletion" which doesn't have a great pedigree iirc.
  - joekim 6y ago
    Studies by Dweck, famous for Growth Mindset, and others point to "ego depletion" simply being a reflection of people's beliefs (My willpower is limited) as opposed to an actual resource that gets depleted. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/46579000_Ego_Depletion-Is_It_All_in_Your_Head_Implicit_Theories_About_Willpower_Affect_Self-Regulation https://www.researchgate.net/publication/46579000_Ego_Deplet... https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/01/29/another-blow-for-ego-depletion-theory-willpower-seems-to-replenish-over-time/ https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/01/29/another-blow-for-ego-de...
- epicureanideal 6y ago
  Yes, I mean it in a similar way to the idea of "decision fatigue", but more broadly about all kinds of cognitive tasks.

by joekim 6y ago

epicureanideal 6y ago

I'll definitely try this, but do you happen to have any links about this? And yes, I realize "mental energy reserve" isn't a scientific term, it's just a term I'm using for lack of something better to label something I experience. Re: the football team though, no matter how energized they are, that team will not be able to lift more than their 1RM (1 rep max), they won't be able to lift their 10RM (10 rep max) more than 10 times (maybe a few more on a good day). Eventually there are physical limits to their ability. Similarly if that team had not slept for 48 hours, or had done non-stop math problems for 18 hours and was asked to continue doing them.

joekim 6y ago
> Re: the football team though, no matter how energized they are, that team will not be able to lift more than their 1RM (1 rep max), they won't be able to lift their 10RM (10 rep max) more than 10 times (maybe a few more on a good day). Eventually there are physical limits to their ability. Similarly if that team had not slept for 48 hours, or had done non-stop math problems for 18 hours and was asked to continue doing them. I want to challenge your thought experiment. Consider Navy Seal training. Pushing through via sheer force of will isn't possible. There needs to be a cycling and restorative process that enables above and beyond grit. Clip of Prof Huberman on "quitting behavior" such as quitting a long bout of work. (Note: Noradrenaline is norepinephrine. It's a weird historical thing where two teams discovered it and nobody agreed on the real name) https://podclips.com/ct/y4Ucji https://podclips.com/ct/y4Ucji Good Joe Rogan with Huberman. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLJowTOkZVo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLJowTOkZVo
- epicureanideal 6y ago
  "Pushing through via sheer force of will isn't possible." That's exactly what I'm saying. I'll check out the link.
  - joekim 6y ago
    > "Pushing through via sheer force of will isn't possible." > That's exactly what I'm saying. I'll check out the link. What I'm saying is that you can't push your way through Navy Seal training by trying harder. But you can significantly increase your output and down regulate the process around "quitting" by using other techniques that will trigger the norepinephrine reset.
    - epicureanideal 6y ago
      I think you're identifying something important to talk about. If I understand correctly from the PodClip, really the idea is to give your brain a small reward for making progress. I think many of us on HN are familiar with being able to work 10-12 hours if we're feeling like we're on the track to success. However, even then, at 10-12 hours, eventually the brain gets tired. That's something that I'm also interested in learning about.
      - joekim 6y ago
        When your brain gets tired maybe all you need to do is some Yoga Nidra or alike and you can reset and get more clarity back by pushing out the norepinephrine.
james_s_tayler 6y ago
Sounds like a regurgitation of the interview of Dr Andrew Huberman on Rich Will's podcast. Look it up on YouTube.
- joekim 6y ago
  Yeah, sorry I should have referenced the source in the original post.
  - james_s_tayler 6y ago
    It's a fantastic interview!
TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
Check out Paul Scheele of Learning Strategies Corporation https://www.learningstrategies.com/Home.asp https://www.learningstrategies.com/Home.asp No affiliation, just a happy customer. He's got this one guided meditation called 15 minute memory super charger, or some such, I think it's this one: https://www.learningstrategies.com/Paraliminal/Memory.asp https://www.learningstrategies.com/Paraliminal/Memory.asp It gets me nearly every time. I'd say 7 out of 10 times I listen to it I enter an altered state of relaxed alertness, somewhere between awake and and sleep, where I'm aware of my body and mind, but not fully present. Observers say I looked like I was asleep because I start twitching like I'm about fall asleep, but you're aware of what's happening. Do it a few days in a row and the change in mental / emotional resilience is nothing short of phenomenal.
wildpeaks 6y ago
You might enjoy reading about The Spoon Theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/ https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine... It's a similar way to describe budgeting mental energy reserves, and how some activities lose spoons while others replenish them.

_tom_ 6y ago

While "mental energy reserve" is not a standard term, "decision fatigue" is, and is basically the same idea.

infogulch 6y ago
Eh, "mental energy reserve" seems to be used like "ego depletion" which doesn't have a great pedigree iirc.
- joekim 6y ago
  Studies by Dweck, famous for Growth Mindset, and others point to "ego depletion" simply being a reflection of people's beliefs (My willpower is limited) as opposed to an actual resource that gets depleted. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/46579000_Ego_Depletion-Is_It_All_in_Your_Head_Implicit_Theories_About_Willpower_Affect_Self-Regulation https://www.researchgate.net/publication/46579000_Ego_Deplet... https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/01/29/another-blow-for-ego-depletion-theory-willpower-seems-to-replenish-over-time/ https://digest.bps.org.uk/2018/01/29/another-blow-for-ego-de...
epicureanideal 6y ago
Yes, I mean it in a similar way to the idea of "decision fatigue", but more broadly about all kinds of cognitive tasks.