5 ms·

The thing that hits me is the "$500k+/year in the valley". Is this really a thing? Am I a giant dumbass for staying in Colorado? Even factoring in my stock g

by JPKab 6y ago

The thing that hits me is the "$500k+/year in the valley". Is this really a thing? Am I a giant dumbass for staying in Colorado? Even factoring in my stock grants, I'm nowhere close to that number.

non-entity 6y ago
I keep telling myself one day I'll try to make it, but by the time I feel comfortable with those interviews I'll probably be too old for FAANG lol.
- Schiendelman 6y ago
  If I may offer advice: Never tell yourself no. Go give it a shot, even if you don't prepare at all. You lose nothing.
  - giantg2 6y ago
    Well... your current employer might let you go or freeze your upward mobility if they find out you are looking at other jobs. I've even seen this internally. If I want to go to another team, why would my manager use their budget or political influence to promote me when they can use it on someone who is staying on their team.
    - three_seagrass 6y ago
      This is why you do not tell your manager until it's decided, or it's so far along that they're needed as a reference. In a perfect world, your manager should not care and your company should not treat you any differently for looking, but this is rarely the case.
      - giantg2 6y ago
        Externally, I agree. On a side note, my company will not provide references when you leave and forbids managers from providing any references. At my company, internal postings notify your manager when you apply, so there's no avoiding it. It's generally better to talk to them first so they aren't blindsided by the posting. Otherwise, if you don't get the new position that could create some friction with the existing one. My company can also trap you in your current position if they designate you as a "key resource".
  - logicslave 6y ago
    You'll never pass if you dont prepare, this is bad advice
    - notJim 6y ago
      If you spend so much time preparing that you never interview, you'll never pass either.
- TheSwordsman 6y ago
  You only make it by taking the uncomfortable shots. I also never felt comfortable with the interviews. Worst that happens, you get feedback on things you can work on.
Schiendelman 6y ago
Depends on your experience. If you're at a senior level, you can potentially get that from Google, Apple, or Netflix. You'll spend a lot more of it on housing, but you'll still come out ahead, by a lot.
zdragnar 6y ago
Netflix is, iirc, quite an outlier in terms of salary versus other types of comp. They are also not bashful of letting people go that don't meet their expectations.
zten 6y ago
> Is this really a thing? There's outrageous equity offered by like 5 companies. Everybody else is getting stock option grants worth 5-10% of what Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Google, and Microsoft are offering (the situation is a little different for Netflix). > Am I a giant dumbass for staying in Colorado? Probably not, Colorado is great.
- xenihn 6y ago
  There are a few other companies that consistently give offers with TC approaching $500k to senior engineers, where the non-salary portion of the comp consists of RSUs that are immediately sellable upon vesting (like FAANG), as opposed to stock options. I'm sure I'm missing some, but these are the ones that I could think of off the top of my head (verified with levels.fyi): - Snap - Pinterest - Lyft (though their stock is hurting right now, they still have top-band comp) And then there's HFT, where $500k is probably considered average, but I guess that may as well be a completely different industry. If we want to drop down to approaching $400k, you can add: - Dropbox - Square Also I don't think Microsoft should be on your list unless you're specifically referring to LinkedIn's SF and Sunnyvale offices. Note that getting $500k+ TC offers as a senior is still exceptional even in the Bay Area (look at levels.fyi). Netflix is supposed to be the most consistent when it comes to giving offers in that range (and all-cash too). Whereas if four senior engineers got four offers each from other companies on the list, they would likely range between $300k and $500k before negotiation.
  - zten 6y ago
    I appreciate the fixes to what I said. I mistakenly thought Microsoft offered a more generous RSU package. What I wanted to emphasize, mostly, was that there exists a tier of companies that offer stratospheric compensation primarily through equity, but there are many more people working at other publicly-traded companies that offer RSUs that are worth closer to what you might consider to be a yearly bonus.
TheSwordsman 6y ago
Yes.
auspex 6y ago
It definitely happens but it is salary + RSU generally.
WJW 6y ago
If you measure "dumbass" purely by income, probably yes. There's a lot to dislike about the valley though, so choose wisely.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Zenbit_UX 6y ago
For the top of the top who can play offers from multiple FAANGs against each other, ya it's possible. For the normal to above average devs is where the cost of living vs high income dilemma becomes interesting. An interesting analogy is how many people uprooted and moved to LA in time's past to become movie stars, and how many succeeded. Times are changing though and you can now apply to some major tech companies remotely, more will follow as Cali is now the hardest hit state and the desire to move their cools off.
WWLink 6y ago
I feel the same way about being a dumbass for staying in los angeles lol. Here I am getting low 100k and some linkedin recruiter tells me about a 400k job. Wait WHAT?! Man I'd happily take up one of those Google jobs, but being an embedded software guy, I'm not even sure what they'd want me for. It seems like a lot of silicon valley companies are a great place if you're a web dev, or use C#/Java all the time.
- bananaface 6y ago
  Server optimization is huge business at Google and anywhere that burns an expensive amount of power. It can be incredibly lucrative, I'd look into it.
- dmoy 6y ago
  I have both interviewed and coached embedded software devs into positions at <FAANG company>. You probably won't end up doing embedded work though, just as a point of warning. I mean you might, but probably not. As sibling poster alluded to, there are some jobs closer to that area, but more likely than not you'll end up on some other team doing something completely unrelated to embedded. It doesn't have to be a permanent thing though - It does not take too many years of $300-$400k compensation to make your future much more free to pursue what you want. If you do FAANG for 5-10 years while saving aggressively and can't take any more of it, then you can go back to working on embedded software for a third of the pay and have a huge buffer for retirement.
- smilekzs 6y ago
  Or C++, which can be a great skill for an embedded dev to pivot into other fields, since almost all embedded devs work with C on a daily basis.
JoshTriplett 6y ago
It's really a thing, and it isn't just in the valley. You can find salaries like that in Silicon Forest, too. More than half of it will be stock and bonuses. You're in a lower cost-of-living location, and one where there's less competition; employers don't pay as much there because they don't have to. That said, if you like where you are, you might start by looking for remote work that pays better (from companies that don't say "we can pay you half as much because you're not in California"). Also, look for employers that have a robust technical job ladder for advancement; that's part of how you get a salary like that, and even higher. (I know software architects making 7-figure salaries.)
- notJim 6y ago
  Are there companies paying like this around Portland? Obviously there are in Seattle. I'm in Portland and working remotely, but it would be nice to have more options. I have a friend who was talking to Puppet, and it sounded like their salaries were pretty low (by these standards.)
  - JoshTriplett 6y ago
    Some, yes. (Leaving aside that Google has an office, there are other companies paying that as well, just as there are in Seattle.)
blktiger 6y ago
Keep in mind that the cost of living in silicon valley is drastically higher than Colorado. You can use something like https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/colorado-springs-co-vs-san-francisco-ca https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare... to estimate the difference and it's pretty staggering. You'd probably have to at least double your salary to consider moving.
- bananaface 6y ago
  That calculator (and this argument in general) assumes you are sinking 100% of your income into dead costs, saving nothing and building up no equity. Avoid blowing that monopoly money on cocaine and hookers & you can work for five years and buy half of Ohio.
axaxs 6y ago
I went through the same thing for years. If I were young (early 20s?) and single, I'd probably consider it. But keep in mind that's the high end. Most people in the valley also don't come close to that number, so it's a gamble without an offer in hand. I'm in my 30's now, with a family. There is no reasonable amount of money that could convince me to uproot and go to the valley. Sure I could come out ahead financially, but at what costs? Commuting for hours each day, working long hours, living in a smallish house with no yard, high crime, high pollution, etc. Those are just some negatives, but there are of course some positives too. For me, my time with family is my most valuable asset, and I don't think I'd sell it for $500k. Sure you could go there and make a lot of money and basically retire in 10 years, but I'd rather have those 10 years back in time at the end I'm sure.
- psoy 6y ago
  This is called "rationalization", and to be honest, it looks worse than you may realize.
  - axaxs 6y ago
    Please elaborate.
- notJim 6y ago
  You're making a lot of assumptions that are not necessarily true. You'll never know if you don't look. * Commute/housing: you can afford a lot of house in a good location on $500k (or even 250-300k which might be more attainable). * Long hours: varies a lot from team to team, and company to company. From my own experience, there's not a lot of correlation between long hours and salary, and a lot of people who work long hours do it because they want to. * Crime: crime in the US is at historic lows, not sure what you're worried about here.
  - axaxs 6y ago
    Yeah, I realized after I reread it some of those negatives are contrary to one another. eg insanely expensive housing vs commute time and whatnot. I include commute time into long hours. Many people I knew there, admittedly NOT at FAANG, would spend an hour or more each way on a bus or train, plus 8 or more hours working, that's a huge chunk of the day. I'm remote, if that helps give a frame of reference. As for crime, I guess it's just culture shock. I've had people tell me not to drive, and if you do drive and park, to leave your doors unlocked and empty your car, or else someone will break the windows and take things. And I've seen the broken windows. That, along with being harassed by mentally ill folks, was just a big turn off to me. Though, this may just be more of a SF thing specifically.
bogdanu 6y ago
Ha, tell me about it, I just got from a remote company an offer of 2.2k eur/month as a PHP developer. The drawbacks of being a PHP guy I guess.
- notJim 6y ago
  I was making ~$200k as a PHP developer, not sure what this has to do with it.
  - bogdanu 6y ago
    PHP developers always have had lower salaries, you can't argue with that. Like in retail, it depends on location, location, location; a regular developer will never make that much in Europe - remote (for a EU company) or not.
fractionalhare 6y ago
Yeah, that's top end of software engineer comp for E5/L5 at Facebook/Google, and middle of the road for levels E6/L6. For reference, E5/L5 is achievable with 5 - 10 years of experience, though without a specialization you'll most likely get $400k instead. Netflix median engineer pay is around $400 - 500k, because they only really hire engineers who would be E5/L5 or above. Apple and Amazon also pay this at the titles which map to E5/L5, as does Microsoft, Uber, Square, Snap, Pinterest, etc. This does not include stock appreciation, but stock appreciation certainly helps inflate the comp even further. Going further out from FAANG: if you include non-liquid compensation, many pre-IPO companies pay comparably (or better, with the tradeoff of uncertainty); including Airbnb, Stripe, and Snowflake. Source: I earn about that myself, I have friends at almost all of these companies, and I have worked at or received offers from some. Also, see levels.fyi. I can't tell you what you should do, but from a cost of living perspective: people who make at least $300k in SFBA or NYC will very often come out ahead compared to making maybe half that in a significantly cheaper area, despite the higher cost of living.
three_seagrass 6y ago
Yes. Also true in NYC if you don't want to come to SV.
notJim 6y ago
IMO the move is to find a remote-friendly company that will pay you $200-400k, and stay in Colorado, unless you're already making that and happy where you are of course. Stripe and Github are two companies that are known for paying in the higher range and that hire remotely.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
It’s like going to hollywood hoping to be an actor. It makes sense to pay a few that much so that you can have riches of people to choose from (and exploit?)
s1artibartfast 6y ago
I know top tier dual masters grads who have received close to this right out of college.

by JPKab 6y ago

The thing that hits me is the "$500k+/year in the valley". Is this really a thing? Am I a giant dumbass for staying in Colorado? Even factoring in my stock grants, I'm nowhere close to that number.

non-entity 6y ago

I keep telling myself one day I'll try to make it, but by the time I feel comfortable with those interviews I'll probably be too old for FAANG lol.

Schiendelman 6y ago
If I may offer advice: Never tell yourself no. Go give it a shot, even if you don't prepare at all. You lose nothing.
- giantg2 6y ago
  Well... your current employer might let you go or freeze your upward mobility if they find out you are looking at other jobs. I've even seen this internally. If I want to go to another team, why would my manager use their budget or political influence to promote me when they can use it on someone who is staying on their team.
  - three_seagrass 6y ago
    This is why you do not tell your manager until it's decided, or it's so far along that they're needed as a reference. In a perfect world, your manager should not care and your company should not treat you any differently for looking, but this is rarely the case.
    - giantg2 6y ago
      Externally, I agree. On a side note, my company will not provide references when you leave and forbids managers from providing any references. At my company, internal postings notify your manager when you apply, so there's no avoiding it. It's generally better to talk to them first so they aren't blindsided by the posting. Otherwise, if you don't get the new position that could create some friction with the existing one. My company can also trap you in your current position if they designate you as a "key resource".
- logicslave 6y ago
  You'll never pass if you dont prepare, this is bad advice
  - notJim 6y ago
    If you spend so much time preparing that you never interview, you'll never pass either.
TheSwordsman 6y ago
You only make it by taking the uncomfortable shots. I also never felt comfortable with the interviews. Worst that happens, you get feedback on things you can work on.

Schiendelman 6y ago

Depends on your experience. If you're at a senior level, you can potentially get that from Google, Apple, or Netflix. You'll spend a lot more of it on housing, but you'll still come out ahead, by a lot.

zdragnar 6y ago

Netflix is, iirc, quite an outlier in terms of salary versus other types of comp. They are also not bashful of letting people go that don't meet their expectations.

zten 6y ago

> Is this really a thing? There's outrageous equity offered by like 5 companies. Everybody else is getting stock option grants worth 5-10% of what Facebook, Amazon, Apple, Google, and Microsoft are offering (the situation is a little different for Netflix). > Am I a giant dumbass for staying in Colorado? Probably not, Colorado is great.

xenihn 6y ago
There are a few other companies that consistently give offers with TC approaching $500k to senior engineers, where the non-salary portion of the comp consists of RSUs that are immediately sellable upon vesting (like FAANG), as opposed to stock options. I'm sure I'm missing some, but these are the ones that I could think of off the top of my head (verified with levels.fyi): - Snap - Pinterest - Lyft (though their stock is hurting right now, they still have top-band comp) And then there's HFT, where $500k is probably considered average, but I guess that may as well be a completely different industry. If we want to drop down to approaching $400k, you can add: - Dropbox - Square Also I don't think Microsoft should be on your list unless you're specifically referring to LinkedIn's SF and Sunnyvale offices. Note that getting $500k+ TC offers as a senior is still exceptional even in the Bay Area (look at levels.fyi). Netflix is supposed to be the most consistent when it comes to giving offers in that range (and all-cash too). Whereas if four senior engineers got four offers each from other companies on the list, they would likely range between $300k and $500k before negotiation.
- zten 6y ago
  I appreciate the fixes to what I said. I mistakenly thought Microsoft offered a more generous RSU package. What I wanted to emphasize, mostly, was that there exists a tier of companies that offer stratospheric compensation primarily through equity, but there are many more people working at other publicly-traded companies that offer RSUs that are worth closer to what you might consider to be a yearly bonus.

TheSwordsman 6y ago

Yes.

auspex 6y ago

It definitely happens but it is salary + RSU generally.

WJW 6y ago

If you measure "dumbass" purely by income, probably yes. There's a lot to dislike about the valley though, so choose wisely.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Zenbit_UX 6y ago

For the top of the top who can play offers from multiple FAANGs against each other, ya it's possible. For the normal to above average devs is where the cost of living vs high income dilemma becomes interesting. An interesting analogy is how many people uprooted and moved to LA in time's past to become movie stars, and how many succeeded. Times are changing though and you can now apply to some major tech companies remotely, more will follow as Cali is now the hardest hit state and the desire to move their cools off.

WWLink 6y ago

I feel the same way about being a dumbass for staying in los angeles lol. Here I am getting low 100k and some linkedin recruiter tells me about a 400k job. Wait WHAT?! Man I'd happily take up one of those Google jobs, but being an embedded software guy, I'm not even sure what they'd want me for. It seems like a lot of silicon valley companies are a great place if you're a web dev, or use C#/Java all the time.

bananaface 6y ago
Server optimization is huge business at Google and anywhere that burns an expensive amount of power. It can be incredibly lucrative, I'd look into it.
dmoy 6y ago
I have both interviewed and coached embedded software devs into positions at <FAANG company>. You probably won't end up doing embedded work though, just as a point of warning. I mean you might, but probably not. As sibling poster alluded to, there are some jobs closer to that area, but more likely than not you'll end up on some other team doing something completely unrelated to embedded. It doesn't have to be a permanent thing though - It does not take too many years of $300-$400k compensation to make your future much more free to pursue what you want. If you do FAANG for 5-10 years while saving aggressively and can't take any more of it, then you can go back to working on embedded software for a third of the pay and have a huge buffer for retirement.
smilekzs 6y ago
Or C++, which can be a great skill for an embedded dev to pivot into other fields, since almost all embedded devs work with C on a daily basis.

JoshTriplett 6y ago

It's really a thing, and it isn't just in the valley. You can find salaries like that in Silicon Forest, too. More than half of it will be stock and bonuses. You're in a lower cost-of-living location, and one where there's less competition; employers don't pay as much there because they don't have to. That said, if you like where you are, you might start by looking for remote work that pays better (from companies that don't say "we can pay you half as much because you're not in California"). Also, look for employers that have a robust technical job ladder for advancement; that's part of how you get a salary like that, and even higher. (I know software architects making 7-figure salaries.)

notJim 6y ago
Are there companies paying like this around Portland? Obviously there are in Seattle. I'm in Portland and working remotely, but it would be nice to have more options. I have a friend who was talking to Puppet, and it sounded like their salaries were pretty low (by these standards.)
- JoshTriplett 6y ago
  Some, yes. (Leaving aside that Google has an office, there are other companies paying that as well, just as there are in Seattle.)

blktiger 6y ago

Keep in mind that the cost of living in silicon valley is drastically higher than Colorado. You can use something like https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare/colorado-springs-co-vs-san-francisco-ca https://www.nerdwallet.com/cost-of-living-calculator/compare... to estimate the difference and it's pretty staggering. You'd probably have to at least double your salary to consider moving.

bananaface 6y ago
That calculator (and this argument in general) assumes you are sinking 100% of your income into dead costs, saving nothing and building up no equity. Avoid blowing that monopoly money on cocaine and hookers & you can work for five years and buy half of Ohio.

axaxs 6y ago

I went through the same thing for years. If I were young (early 20s?) and single, I'd probably consider it. But keep in mind that's the high end. Most people in the valley also don't come close to that number, so it's a gamble without an offer in hand. I'm in my 30's now, with a family. There is no reasonable amount of money that could convince me to uproot and go to the valley. Sure I could come out ahead financially, but at what costs? Commuting for hours each day, working long hours, living in a smallish house with no yard, high crime, high pollution, etc. Those are just some negatives, but there are of course some positives too. For me, my time with family is my most valuable asset, and I don't think I'd sell it for $500k. Sure you could go there and make a lot of money and basically retire in 10 years, but I'd rather have those 10 years back in time at the end I'm sure.

psoy 6y ago
This is called "rationalization", and to be honest, it looks worse than you may realize.
- axaxs 6y ago
  Please elaborate.
notJim 6y ago
You're making a lot of assumptions that are not necessarily true. You'll never know if you don't look. * Commute/housing: you can afford a lot of house in a good location on $500k (or even 250-300k which might be more attainable). * Long hours: varies a lot from team to team, and company to company. From my own experience, there's not a lot of correlation between long hours and salary, and a lot of people who work long hours do it because they want to. * Crime: crime in the US is at historic lows, not sure what you're worried about here.
- axaxs 6y ago
  Yeah, I realized after I reread it some of those negatives are contrary to one another. eg insanely expensive housing vs commute time and whatnot. I include commute time into long hours. Many people I knew there, admittedly NOT at FAANG, would spend an hour or more each way on a bus or train, plus 8 or more hours working, that's a huge chunk of the day. I'm remote, if that helps give a frame of reference. As for crime, I guess it's just culture shock. I've had people tell me not to drive, and if you do drive and park, to leave your doors unlocked and empty your car, or else someone will break the windows and take things. And I've seen the broken windows. That, along with being harassed by mentally ill folks, was just a big turn off to me. Though, this may just be more of a SF thing specifically.

bogdanu 6y ago

Ha, tell me about it, I just got from a remote company an offer of 2.2k eur/month as a PHP developer. The drawbacks of being a PHP guy I guess.

notJim 6y ago
I was making ~$200k as a PHP developer, not sure what this has to do with it.
- bogdanu 6y ago
  PHP developers always have had lower salaries, you can't argue with that. Like in retail, it depends on location, location, location; a regular developer will never make that much in Europe - remote (for a EU company) or not.

fractionalhare 6y ago

Yeah, that's top end of software engineer comp for E5/L5 at Facebook/Google, and middle of the road for levels E6/L6. For reference, E5/L5 is achievable with 5 - 10 years of experience, though without a specialization you'll most likely get $400k instead. Netflix median engineer pay is around $400 - 500k, because they only really hire engineers who would be E5/L5 or above. Apple and Amazon also pay this at the titles which map to E5/L5, as does Microsoft, Uber, Square, Snap, Pinterest, etc. This does not include stock appreciation, but stock appreciation certainly helps inflate the comp even further. Going further out from FAANG: if you include non-liquid compensation, many pre-IPO companies pay comparably (or better, with the tradeoff of uncertainty); including Airbnb, Stripe, and Snowflake. Source: I earn about that myself, I have friends at almost all of these companies, and I have worked at or received offers from some. Also, see levels.fyi. I can't tell you what you should do, but from a cost of living perspective: people who make at least $300k in SFBA or NYC will very often come out ahead compared to making maybe half that in a significantly cheaper area, despite the higher cost of living.

three_seagrass 6y ago

Yes. Also true in NYC if you don't want to come to SV.

notJim 6y ago

IMO the move is to find a remote-friendly company that will pay you $200-400k, and stay in Colorado, unless you're already making that and happy where you are of course. Stripe and Github are two companies that are known for paying in the higher range and that hire remotely.

mensetmanusman 6y ago

It’s like going to hollywood hoping to be an actor. It makes sense to pay a few that much so that you can have riches of people to choose from (and exploit?)

s1artibartfast 6y ago

I know top tier dual masters grads who have received close to this right out of college.